What is the Rise in Temperature of Molten Metal During Cylindrical Die Forging?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the rise in temperature of molten metal during the process of cylindrical die forging. Participants explore the application of thermodynamic principles, particularly the first law of thermodynamics, to analyze the heat transfer and enthalpy changes involved in the process. The conversation includes attempts to derive equations and clarify assumptions regarding the system's insulation and the properties of the molten metal.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about which equations to use, noting the absence of volume and mass data.
  • Another participant suggests using the open system version of the first law of thermodynamics to determine the change in enthalpy per unit mass.
  • A participant proposes that all terms in their derived equation cancel out, leading to a solvable form with the given data.
  • There is a suggestion that the heat transfer (Q) can be assumed to be zero due to the insulation of the die, leading to a conclusion of Δh = 0.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption of Δh = 0, arguing that it leads to Δu = 0, raising questions about how to solve for temperature change (ΔT).
  • Further clarification is provided regarding the relationship between changes in internal energy (Δu), pressure (ΔP), and temperature (ΔT) for incompressible fluids.
  • One participant points out an error in the application of equations, emphasizing the need to consider the properties of liquids rather than ideal gases.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion remains unresolved, with participants expressing differing views on the assumptions regarding heat transfer and the applicability of certain equations. There is no consensus on how to approach the problem or derive a solution.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the provided data, such as the missing volume and mass, and the assumptions regarding the incompressibility of the molten metal. The discussion highlights the complexity of applying thermodynamic principles in this context.

RajarshiB91
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Homework Statement


[/B]
A molten metal is forced through a cylindrical die at a
pressure of 168000 Kg per square meter. Given that the density of
the molten metal is 2000 Kg per cubic meter and the specific heat of the
metal is 0.03, find the rise in temperature during this process. Assume
that the mechanical equivalent of heat is 420 Kg-meter per Kcal.

Homework Equations



H=MCΔT and V/T =constant (probably)[/B]

The Attempt at a Solution



I'm not able to understand which equations to use to solve the problem. The density is given but volume is missing, so I don't have the mass. Also, how do I find the total heat added to the molten metal in the process? Do we need more data to solve this or am I misunderstanding the question?
This is not homework but a question from a competitive exam so I'm not sure what theory to be used to solve this.
 
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Are you familiar with the open system version of the first law of thermodynamics from your thermo course? If you do, then you will know immediately what the change in enthalpy per unit mass is for the molten metal being pushed through the die.

Chet
 
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Hi Chet, thanks for your reply. Yeah, I had a brief introduction to it a long time back. I read it again and I think I have solved the problem. Basically, all the terms cancel out and we are left with the following equation: Q=m(h2-h1) where enthalpy per unit mass h=u+Pv (v=specific volume;inverse of density)
Now, I think it is easily solvable with the given data.
 
RajarshiB91 said:
Hi Chet, thanks for your reply. Yeah, I had a brief introduction to it a long time back. I read it again and I think I have solved the problem. Basically, all the terms cancel out and we are left with the following equation: Q=m(h2-h1) where enthalpy per unit mass h=u+Pv (v=specific volume;inverse of density)
Now, I think it is easily solvable with the given data.
Actually, you can also expected to (reasonably) assume that Q = 0, since the die would be insulated. So you are left with Δh = 0. This will give you the answer you need.

Chet
 
Chestermiller said:
Actually, you can also expected to (reasonably) assume that Q = 0, since the die would be insulated. So you are left with Δh = 0. This will give you the answer you need.

Chet
But if you put only Δh=0, so the equation is then Δu+PΔν=0. But Δv=0 assuming it is incompressible. So, we get only Δu=0. Then how do I solve the problem?
 
RajarshiB91 said:
But if you put only Δh=0, so the equation is then Δu+PΔν=0. But Δv=0 assuming it is incompressible. So, we get only Δu=0. Then how do I solve the problem?
h = u + Pv, so for an incompressible fluid, Δh = Δu + vΔP.

Chet
 
Chestermiller said:
h = u + Pv, so for an incompressible fluid, Δh = Δu + vΔP.

Chet
So, Δu=CvdT and ΔP=RΔT/v. The ΔT cancels out again if I put Δh=0. I still don't see how I can get ΔT from just Δh=0.
 
RajarshiB91 said:
So, Δu=CvdT and ΔP=RΔT/v. The ΔT cancels out again if I put Δh=0. I still don't see how I can get ΔT from just Δh=0.
The equation in bold is incorrect. You are dealing with a liquid, not an ideal gas (even for an ideal gas, the equation is incorrect). You are given the value of ΔP in the problem statement.

Chet
 

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