What Metrics Can Be Defined on a Symmetric Group Beyond the Discrete Metric?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the exploration of metrics that can be defined on symmetric groups beyond the discrete metric. Participants consider various approaches and characteristics of these metrics, touching on theoretical aspects and potential applications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a metric defined as the minimum number of permutations required to transform one element of the symmetric group to another.
  • Another participant suggests that the earlier proposal should actually refer to transpositions rather than permutations.
  • A different approach involves embedding the symmetric group into a general linear group of a complex vector space to pull back the Euclidean metric onto the symmetric group.
  • One participant mentions that finite metric spaces are necessarily discrete, implying limitations on the types of metrics that can be defined.
  • A Hamming distance is introduced as a possible metric, defined in terms of fixed points, alongside a Cayley distance based on the number of cycles in permutations.
  • A reference to a paper by Deza is made, discussing bi-invariant metrics and their relationship to conjugacy classes in symmetric groups.
  • Another participant reiterates the point that finite metric spaces are discrete, clarifying the definition of the discrete metric.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of metrics that can be defined on symmetric groups, with some agreeing on the limitations of finite metric spaces while others propose various metrics without reaching a consensus.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the definitions and properties of the proposed metrics, as well as the implications of finite metric spaces being discrete.

Symmetryholic
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If I convert a symmetric group of degree n into a metric space, what metrics can be defined except a discrete metric?

If a metric can be defined, I am wondering if the metric can describe some characteristics of a symmetric group.
 
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Maybe [itex]d(\sigma,\rho)[/itex]=minimum number of permutations required to get from [itex]\sigma(1,...,n)[/itex] to [itex]\rho(1,...,n)[/itex], where [itex]\sigma[/itex] and [itex]\rho[/itex] are element of S_n.
 
quasar987 said:
Maybe [itex]d(\sigma,\rho)[/itex]=minimum number of permutations required to get from [itex]\sigma(1,...,n)[/itex] to [itex]\rho(1,...,n)[/itex], where [itex]\sigma[/itex] and [itex]\rho[/itex] are element of S_n.
If [itex]\sigma, \rho \in S_{n}[/itex], then [itex]\sigma x = \rho[/itex] for [itex]x \in S_{n}[/itex]. I mean, is it just a single time of permuation between elements of [itex]S_{n}[/itex]?

If you happen to have a reference or web link of the above argument, please post it. I will appreciate on it.

Thanks for your reply.
 
Excuse me, I meant "transposition" instead of "permutation".

I have no reference to the above argument. It was just an idea for you to explore. I thought it had the ring of truth.
 
Perhaps you can try embedding S_n into the general linear group of some complex vector space. This way you can pull back the Euclidean metric onto S_n. There are a few ways you can get such embeddings; some keywords: (complex) faithful representations of S_n.
 
Finite metric spaces are necessarily discrete. (Points are closed, and every subset is a finite union of points)
 
You can define a Hamming distance on permutations:
d( a, b)= n-fix(a-1b)

The distance defined by quasar987 is the Cayley distance in Sym(n):
d( a, b)= n-number of cycles of a-1b

A paper of Deza ("Metrics on Permutations, a Survey",1998) says that if you have a bi-invariant metric, that is, for all a,b,c: d(a,b)=d(ac,bc)=d(ca,cb), then there is a weight function defined by w(a)=d(Id,a). The weight function have the same value for all permutations in the same conjugacy class. So the weight w can be expressed as a linear comb. of the irreducible characters of Sym(n).
Note that Hamming and Cayley distances are both bi-invariant.

There are also not bi-invariant metrics such as the Lee distance. Ask if you want to know more about it, I'm finishing a PhD thesis on this subject :)
 
Hurkyl said:
Finite metric spaces are necessarily discrete. (Points are closed, and every subset is a finite union of points)

I think the discrete metric specifically refers to the metric d(x,y) = 1 if x =/= y
 

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