What political ideology do you follow, if any?

What political ideology do you follow?

  • Free Communism (Marxism, Marxist-Leninism)

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • Libertarian Socialism (Anarcho-Communism)

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Permanent Socialism (Not Transitionary)

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • Social Democratic Socialism or Social Democracy (specify)

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Social Capitalism (Liberalism, Neoliberalism, Trade Restrictions)

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • Capitalism (Fiscal Conservatism)

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Anarcho-Capitalism (Objectivism)

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Authoritarianism (Theocracy, Fascism, Stalinism)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • None

    Votes: 5 15.6%
  • Other (If other, please specify)

    Votes: 2 6.3%

  • Total voters
    32
  • #76
356
3
Dawguard said:
Smasherman, everything you say is a fine ideal. Certanily little nomadic groups lived communal lives, but they had little choice. Most of them were forced to rely on each other for survival simply becuase they were small groups. It was not a question of right and wrong with them, it was simply the best way to live. On a larger scale though it is utterly impractical to expect people to behave like that. Never in all human history has there been a large scale communist society, and that begs the question why? It has been tried, not just in the twentieth century, but it has inevitably failed.
Dawguard, you have no argument. Because you're arguments come down toth is:
Dawguard said:
This is essentially my argument; that no matter how honorable the intentions of communism it is practically impossible due to the majority of mankind's inherent corruption.
Why do you insist on spouting this gibberish? There are infinitely simpler arguments against communism, all of which do not depend on complicated philosophical issues such as human nature and none of which are all that controversial. For example, my favorite goes a little like this:

"Dictatorships are Bad"
 
  • #77
alexandra said:
Yes, also, I clicked on the "About us" link. This organisation is totally anti-Castro and against the revolution - it is based in Florida (Cuban middle class 'refugees'):
I would consider this a fairly biased source of information, and it is interesting to note that despite their bias what they are saying about Che is hardly damning when you really think about it. After all, are laziness and vagrancy rewarded in capitalist societies? Should such qualities be rewarded in any society? In the 'western democracies', the lazy starve to death, and vagrants and those who blatantly 'disrespect authority' land up in prison. Why should Che be vilified for trying to get people to contribute to their society and punishing (though not with the death sentence) those who did not, especially in 1960, straight after the revolution when it was vital to build the structures of the new society? Che's own contributions to the rebuilding of Cuban society are legendary: he worked incredibly long hours throughout the week (Mondays through to Saturdays), including nights, and did volunteer labour on Sunday mornings, cutting cane, building schools, etc. In between, he continued educating himself (mathematics, economics) to better contribute to the new society. He demanded of others only a fraction of what he did himself. The music issue is a bit trivial, I think -in this article, 'netforcuba' was out to vilify Carlos Santana for wearing a Che T-shirt - who knows whether or not Che ever really imprisoned anyone for the type of music they were listening to.
While I can't vouch for them really I do see that the author of the article had several sources sited for his information. He seems to know what he's talking about. Obviously though there was an idiological bias in who were painted as good guys and who were painted as bad guys but I don't see any reason to doubt the actual information in the article itself. I also would doubt that the author wrote a two page well sourced article just to vilify Santana in that one small paragraph at the end.

Any way. Regardless of his intentions I don't like the idea of throwing people in prison for being homeless or "lazy" or because they don't support "the glorious revolution". I have known plenty of good people who probably would have wound up in such camps because they just did what they needed to for food and a roof and spent the rest of their time enjoying life. They'd save up a bit then pick up and travel somewhere else. Maybe find another odd job someplace when they ran out of money. In this capitalist society I live in where everyone are expected to be consumers, workers, credit card holders, homeowners/apartment renters, family people, ect they didn't fit in one iota but were never jailed for it. I'm sure that if Bush started having young rebelious kids jailed for being delinquents and listening to punk rock there would be an up roar and you likely would be screaming along with everyone else. Somehow though you can find it within yourself to forgive Che for having people executed and thrown into prison camps because they didn't live up to his ideals.
 
  • #78
88
3
Smurf said:
Why do you insist on spouting this gibberish? There are infinitely simpler arguments against communism, all of which do not depend on complicated philosophical issues such as human nature and none of which are all that controversial. For example, my favorite goes a little like this:
"Dictatorships are Bad"
Why do you call it gibberish? Its been proven by history, which is the best proof anyone can use. Go ahead and call it gibberish, but first you have to prove it wrong, which is a whole lot harder then simply insulting it.
 
  • #79
356
3
Dawguard said:
Why do you call it gibberish? Its been proven by history, which is the best proof anyone can use. Go ahead and call it gibberish, but first you have to prove it wrong, which is a whole lot harder then simply insulting it.
There is nothing proven. You're first post was this:
Dawguard said:
Communism places power, not in the hands of the people, but in a few who claim to work for the benefit of everyone. It is a dictatorship of absolute power. In the last hundred years Marxist goverments have killed millions of people in work camps, prisons, and sheer slaughters. Remember Tenanim square anyone? What about the religous people who were murdered simply for practicing their faith? Just recently in China a group of Buhdists were captured, raped and beaten to death. Poverty was rampant in the USSR, there were famines that killed hundreds of thousands. Just one honest look at what Communism brings will tell you how foolish it is to seek to bring about that form of government. While the ideal of the community working together is to be admired, you must realize that it is immposible to attain. The past hundred years have proved this.
Followed only by re-wordings of the same and a feeble attempt or two to make claims on human nature. All that is proven by history is that the USSR massively violated human rights and eventually collapsed. The same could be said about Rome! Or Athens! Or Nazi Germany! Does this mean that Impericalism does not work? Does this mean that Fascism does not work? Does this mean that Democracy does not work? (All three cases, as well as countless others - prove that democracy, or republic, or some variant thereof does not work. By your own (illogical) logic!)

Some proof you have!

edit: I'll say it again to you Dawguard. There are plenty of arguments against communism without resorting to ridiculous claims such as it being incompatible with human nature or citing a period of 50 years as proof that anything called "Communism" (regardless of the number of differences) doesn't work. (which I don't think I've yet to hear a definition of. What DOES work?)
 
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  • #80
alexandra
TheStatutoryApe said:
Regardless of his intentions I don't like the idea of throwing people in prison for being homeless or "lazy" or because they don't support "the glorious revolution". I have known plenty of good people who probably would have wound up in such camps because they just did what they needed to for food and a roof and spent the rest of their time enjoying life. They'd save up a bit then pick up and travel somewhere else. Maybe find another odd job someplace when they ran out of money. In this capitalist society I live in where everyone are expected to be consumers, workers, credit card holders, homeowners/apartment renters, family people, ect they didn't fit in one iota but were never jailed for it.
I agree with you here, of course. People who refuse to buy into consumerism and the whole ethos of the capitalist lifestyle are to be commended in a way (though IMO it is quite a selfish and individualistic and, in the end, futile solution to just 'opt out' rather than to participate actively in changing what is wrong with the society).

TheStatutoryApe said:
I'm sure that if Bush started having young rebelious kids jailed for being delinquents and listening to punk rock there would be an up roar and you likely would be screaming along with everyone else. Somehow though you can find it within yourself to forgive Che for having people executed and thrown into prison camps because they didn't live up to his ideals.
Of course I'd be screaming along with everyone else! But Che just did not do those things he's been accused of - that's what I'm disagreeing with. People who were sent to 'labour camps' were sent for good reason, not for trivial reasons like listening to loud music. Listening to loud music may have been part of what they were doing, but it could not have been the sole reason. I feel at a loss arguing about something neither of us can truly verify. The website you quoted is firmly anti-Castro, anti-Che, anti-Cuba - I know that for sure, and therefore I do not trust any of the information it gives.
 
  • #81
30
0
I don't believe in absolute ownership. Other cultures appeared to exist (before European imperialism) without the concept of personal ownership. Members of a society would feel free to take any objects they had need of, and expect them to be taken by others.
 
  • #82
88
3
Smurf said:
There is nothing proven. Followed only by re-wordings of the same and a feeble attempt or two to make claims on human nature. All that is proven by history is that the USSR massively violated human rights and eventually collapsed. The same could be said about Rome! Or Athens! Or Nazi Germany! Does this mean that Impericalism does not work? Does this mean that Fascism does not work? Does this mean that Democracy does not work? (All three cases, as well as countless others - prove that democracy, or republic, or some variant thereof does not work. By your own (illogical) logic!)

Some proof you have!
You're right, nothing has worked permanently, and I'm not the first person to say it. Aristotle claimed that all forms of government were ultimatly doomed, and all I'm doing is saying why the communist form is doomed. It wasn't just the USSR though, don't forget the other country that had a massive revelution; China. Communism failed in its goals for that country too.
But once again you're right, democracy won't last, imperialism won't last; nothing will. Once government rises and than falls, left behind by whatever comes next until the newcomer dies away. The spesific reasons change for each government and the only one I've addressed has been communism.
Besides, show me one time when communism worked. You know, this is the fourth time I've asked that, and you still haven't answered it. I wonder why? :uhh:
 
  • #83
30
0
Totalitarianism is not really communism. It's state capitalism where the government controls the economy and essentially acts like a single giant corporation. Trotsky criticized Stalinism in being totalitarian in nature.

All forms of radicalism are equally bad. One gives too much power to private corporations and the second gives too much power to the government.
 
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  • #84
Stop repeating the boring argument that "communism has never worked". Communists know this already. If something has never happened, that does not mean it cannot happen. Many factors may have caused communism to fail in certain countries. You have no proof that communism cannot work. Communists have no proof that it can work. However, evidence leads many to believe that it can work; therefore, they try to implement it.
 
  • #85
221
0
However, evidence leads many to believe that it can work; therefore, they try to implement it.
What evidence is this..

Stop repeating the boring very small scale experiements that worked, and give us some meaningful evidence at a large scale.

Stop repeating the boring argument that "communism has never worked". Communists know this already.
Ahh some sence at last, so you are admitting that communism doesnt work?
 
  • #86
No, I am admitting that communism hasn't worked yet. There have been some admirable socialist states though. In terms of evidence, I am talking about communist theory moreso than practice. Though some leftist movements are admirable. The Zapatista movement. I disagree with Cuba on many issues, but Fidel has improved the country. Che was a better revolutionary, however. Anarchism in Spain is another example of a leftist movement.

Remember, anarcho-communism is different from traditional marxism. I am skeptical of centralization and the "marxist" revolutions that have occured. They may work, but I think an anarchist method to achieving communism is preferable.

Communism has never been implemented in its true form. Some say it can never be done. However, there is no evidence that communism in its true form has ever been achieved; therefore, it is impossible to say that, if achieved, communism won't work.
 
  • #87
356
3
Dawguard said:
Besides, show me one time when communism worked. You know, this is the fourth time I've asked that, and you still haven't answered it. I wonder why? :uhh:
Well I still havn't gotten an answer to "What do you mean by 'worked'" so isn't it a bit unfair to expect an answer to a question I don't understand? Regardless, this argument is over, you've ceded that communism is not specially 'non-working' than other systems. If you want to state that any political system will eventually die out I'll agree with you.
 
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  • #88
McGyver
Scientists Must be Unbiased: No Category Available

I could not find an appropriate selection either. I often will reason politically as a scientist, which means I must remain open to all ideas and discussion, devout of pre-conceived or biased conclusions, and find solutions through attentiveness and analysis.

On the other hand, political biases typically are based upon beliefs adopted from others (teachers, family) and fed by emotion - often seen as irrational exuberance and subject to influence by large group gatherings.

One has to work hard to remain unimpaired by emotion in decision-making, and led by intelligence, attentiveness, and free thinking. Such traits are required of top athletes, performers, and leaders as well.
 
  • #89
88
3
By not worked I mean that it has never produced the utopian society that it claims to create. Also, while I said that all forms of government are doomed to fail, some do work and last better then others. In my belief, any attempt to create communism will result in failure, while democracy and republics won't neccesarily violate human rights. Also, no matter what the form of government the idea of capitalism remains the same. In this regard capitalism will never fall and the cannot be said of its antithesis, communism.
 
  • #90
Dawguard said:
By not worked I mean that it has never produced the utopian society that it claims to create. Also, while I said that all forms of government are doomed to fail, some do work and last better then others. In my belief, any attempt to create communism will result in failure, while democracy and republics won't neccesarily violate human rights. Also, no matter what the form of government the idea of capitalism remains the same. In this regard capitalism will never fall and the cannot be said of its antithesis, communism.
You say these things as if you have proof. Do you have some hidden knowledge no one else is aware of? If so, please share with me how, with all the variables in this complex world, capitalism will "never" fall?
 
  • #91
10
0
i like one that mixes all of those, it's more real, a no-name party.
none of today's --isms distinguise themselves that clearly.
 
  • #92
88
3
Dooga Blackrazor said:
You say these things as if you have proof. Do you have some hidden knowledge no one else is aware of? If so, please share with me how, with all the variables in this complex world, capitalism will "never" fall?
I do have proof, and it's not exactly hidden knowledge. My proof is simple and I have stated it many times; people are too selfish to adopt communism on a large scale. This however requires further proof, and that burden lies on me. Now, since we cannot examine human nature like a piece of meat we have to rely on what we see it do. There is only one place to look for this and it is history. So, glancing back through the illuminating pages of time, we see corruption everywhere. In the so-called great civilization of Greece, the democracy of Athens was limited to citizens, which were a tiny part of the total population. The city was rampant with poverty, farmers basically became slaves through indentured servitude, etc. Pysistratus took over and became the first tyrant of Greece. He used murder, extortion and torture to achieve his goals. Even during the days of great thinkers like Plato, Aristotle and Xeno (let's not forget they murdered Socrates simply for dissenting with the status quo), Athens sucked up power and wealth into itself at the expense of other Greek city-states. The Peleponisian War, lasting 250 years, was the result; countless dead, impoverished, etc.
Sorry to rant, but all of history reads like this. No religion, state or institution has remained uncorrupted. Forget the nice, pleasent view of people that pervades American society. People are depraved, corupt, lustful, and selfish individuals and there is no reason to think they will suddenly change for the better. See, its not hidden, all you have to do is turn your head to look behind and you will see it screaming in your face. Sure it's depressing and people hate to think like that, but as an old saying goes, "knowledge is sorrow".

Now, about capitalism never falling, that is simply explained. There can only be two options, communism and capitalism. There is no inbetween, for socialism is limited capitalism. Therefore one of the two must exist, and since true communism is inherently immpossible capitalism is the only one left be sheer process of ellimination.
 
  • #93
356
3
Dawguard said:
By not worked I mean that it has never produced the utopian society that it claims to create. Also, while I said that all forms of government are doomed to fail, some do work and last better then others. In my belief, any attempt to create communism will result in failure, while democracy and republics won't neccesarily violate human rights. Also, no matter what the form of government the idea of capitalism remains the same. In this regard capitalism will never fall and the cannot be said of its antithesis, communism.
I don't really understand it when people make this kind of distinction. As if the state and the economic system imposed by the state are not linked. It doesn't make any sense to me.
 
  • #94
356
3
Dawguard said:
I do have proof, and it's not exactly hidden knowledge. My proof is simple and I have stated it many times; people are too selfish to adopt communism on a large scale. This however requires further proof, and that burden lies on me. Now, since we cannot examine human nature like a piece of meat we have to rely on what we see it do. There is only one place to look for this and it is history. So, glancing back through the illuminating pages of time, we see corruption everywhere. In the so-called great civilization of Greece, the democracy of Athens was limited to citizens, which were a tiny part of the total population. The city was rampant with poverty, farmers basically became slaves through indentured servitude, etc. Pysistratus took over and became the first tyrant of Greece. He used murder, extortion and torture to achieve his goals. Even during the days of great thinkers like Plato, Aristotle and Xeno (let's not forget they murdered Socrates simply for dissenting with the status quo), Athens sucked up power and wealth into itself at the expense of other Greek city-states. The Peleponisian War, lasting 250 years, was the result; countless dead, impoverished, etc.
You should read some Hobbes. He wrote this book called Leviathan. He makes some good arguments against the liberal idea that humans are individualistic.
 
  • #95
88
3
The state and the ecenomic system are linked but not necesarily bound together. A republic can be capitalist, as can a democracy, dictatorship and monarchy. Unfortunatly the same cannot be said of communism; I know of no communist countries that are not dictatorships.
I'll see of I can get a copy of the book, it should provide some interesting insight.
 
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  • #96
356
3
Dawguard said:
The state and the ecenomic system are linked but not necesarily bound together. A republic can be capitalist, as can a democracy, dictatorship and monarchy. Unfortunatly the same cannot be said of communism; I know of no communist countries that are not dictatorships.
Actually you know of one that's a dictatorship (cuba), and a lot more that, while still totalitarian, weren't dictatorships. The USSR, for example, was not a dictatorship for most of it's history. It ceased to be a dictatorship with the death of Stalin, or arguably even the death of Lenin.
 
  • #97
88
3
Smurf said:
Actually you know of one that's a dictatorship (cuba), and a lot more that, while still totalitarian, weren't dictatorships. The USSR, for example, was not a dictatorship for most of it's history. It ceased to be a dictatorship with the death of Stalin, or arguably even the death of Lenin.
All right, I'll admit they aren't dictatorships in the strict sense. As you said though they are totalitarian, which is nearly the same; for the people under it the effect is identical.
 
  • #98
30
0
A gift economy could do better than capitalism. It all depends on the kind of people.
 

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