News Will Bush's Plan Bring Peace to Israel and Palestine?

[turbo]

Yonoz:

Well.. This is why it is good that US has come into the picture. Because they could say that israel have to go back to their original borders. They could help get about UN/nato resources to keep palestine peaceful. .I think that, what this thread started with, bush can make a change. But is he willing?

Bush cannot make any change because he is unwilling to engage in diplomacy. Israel is in the position of military superiority, and has no reason to change the status quo. The US must be willing to offer both the carrot and the stick to both sides of the conflict, and so far, Israel has not been shown the stick and instead gets a steady diet of carrots. If this does not change, Israel will never negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians.

There are a number of things underlying the problem that make resolution tough. Zionists used ethnic cleansing to sweep Arab Palestinians from Palestine, flooding bordering countries with refugees. Also, when the Palestinians responded to the force used against them, they were branded as terrorists. Over the decades, Israel has used its influence in US politics to blunt any UN condemnation of their actions. By now, most Arabs with a rational world-view believe that the US is vehemently pro-Zionist and anti-Arab. The Zionists carved their country out of a colonial territory by using violence and terrorism against the natives living there. Under international law, these displaced persons are entitled to the right of return, or if that right of return is abrogated under extraordinary circumstances, at least reasonable restitution. Israel has denied these obligations for over 50 years.

If I invaded your home and drove you out, would you feel satisfied if after 50+ years, I allowed you to live in the tool shed, as long as I had absolute control over your comings and goings? The Palestinians in the "tool shed" are not far-removed from this example.

 

[Yonoz]

currently at least it is al-aqsa mosque, where ariel sharon entered the prayer hall with a fully armed military bodyguard ignoring all the rules of entering a mosque, then after resistance by palestinians that involved shoes being thrown at the offender, the group fired at the unarmed palestinians. if that's not how it started, then how did it?

Al-Aqsa Mosque is, well, a Mosque - the Temple Mount is a mount. The Al-Aqsa Mosque is built on the Temple Mount, as is the Dome of the Rock. The Muslim name for the Temple Mount is the Noble Sanctuary. A rose by any other name...
As for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Intifada#_ref-15"/Noble Sanctuary/Official Residence of the Spaghetti Monster:

"A group of Palestinian dignitaries came to protest the visit, as did three Arab Knesset Members. With the dignitaries watching from a safe distance, the Shahab (youth mob) threw rocks and attempted to get past the Israeli security personnel and reach Sharon and his entourage [...] Still, Sharon's deportment was quiet and dignified. He did not pray, did not make any statement, or do anything else that might be interpreted as offensive to the sensitivities of Muslims. Even after he came back near the Wailing Wall under the hail of rocks, he remained calm. "I came here as one who believes in coexistence between Jews and Arabs," Sharon told the waiting reporters. "I believe that we can build and develop together. This was a peaceful visit. Is it an instigation for Israeli Jews to come to the Jewish people's holiest site?"

You see - Sharon was on the Noble Sanctuary, but he never entered the Al-Aqsa Mosque, nor the Dome of the Rock. The real violence started the next day, Friday - prayer day.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qb5fIP-MfAc", ask anyone who was in the Thanzeem at the time. There was even an attack on an Israeli settler convoy that claimed the life of an Israeli soldier the day before Sharon's visit - which for some reason doesn't signify the start of the second Intifada to you more than a Jew visiting the Noble Sanctuary - something that happened many many times before, never sparking any uprisings.

so al-dura was not killed? staged? EVERY arab channel was showing that tape, a lot of western ones, and why didnt the government of israel say it was a false tape or a setup when it happend? and what other scenes in the tape? it seems to me that your trying to say that israel is a country that has never commited any wrong since its beggining.

It quite possibly was staged: several investigations pointed to that possibility - though of course it can't be said with any certainty. The Israeli government can't make assertions such as that without a proper investigation, and that took time. The France 2 network, which holds the master tapes, will not release them to the public. Even the sequence shown in the court was cut. Here's http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=\\ForeignBureaus\\archive\\200502\\FOR20050215c.html" :

In a January 2005 article in Le Figaro , Jeambar and Leconte said that when France 2 news director Arlette Chabot showed them the cassette, they were surprised that it did not contain any footage of the child's "agony."

They also found that the first 20 minutes or so of the cassette showed scenes of young Palestinians "playing at war" in front of the camera, falling as if wounded and then getting up and walking away.

Jeambar and Leconte told radio station RCJ that a France 2 official also present at the meeting had said in reference to the playacting, "You know it's always like that."

Israel has done "wrong", as has every other country, but your historical errors show for how much nonsense it is blamed.

and when did muslims conduct attacks on jews from al-aqsa mosque?

Not from the mosque, from the Temple Mount/Noble Sanctuary. One such account is in the source relating to Sharon's visit, but there were several other cases during the Intifadas.

what hapend at the cathedral was a siege that lasted for a few months. even the vatican pleaded for the israelies to stop it, but to no avail.

You mean the Church of the Nativity, which is in Bethlehem, not Jerusalem. Funny you should be so sensitive about weapons entering mosques, but you see no problem in armed fighters claiming refuge in a church, let alone stealing the church's valuables. The siege lasted 39 days, and everyone was free to come out unharmed.

digging near the fragile wall for construction, and digging tunnels under the mosque WITHOUT knowledge of the islamic wuqf.

There are no tunnels being dug under the mosque, despite what the Waqf claims. The digs outside the wall are salvation digs so that a replacement for a swept ramp can be built. Unlike the Waqf's digs, they are supervised by professionals. The Waqf never conducts any salvation digs, and http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=776922" .

and how will talking with only the current corrupt and minoroty fatah, while ignoring the majority hamas help? of course everything israel does is 'meant' for some reason, since israel is never in the wrong. and do you think that increased military activity is going to calm hamas down?
oh, and how about putting 2/3 of the parliment in prison?

I have explained the reasons why negotiations with Hamas under the current circumstances are futile.
The military activity is not meant to calm Hamas down, I have stated it is meant to occupy the militants and extract a toll from them - and it has achieved that. I don't see any point in calming Hamas down if they will only gather strength for an inevitable future confrontation.
Indeed, parliament members on behalf of Hamas are in Israeli prisons. Having witnessed what Hamas has done in Gaza, I believe it's in everyone's interests. Everyone but Hamas and their Iranian backers, that is.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonoz:

Well.. This is why it is good that US has come into the picture. Because they could say that israel have to go back to their original borders. They could help get about UN/nato resources to keep palestine peaceful. .I think that, what this thread started with, bush can make a change. But is he willing?

I believe Bush is willing, but there's a lot of elements in the equation. One rocket, one shell can tear down years of trust-building.

 

[Evo]

I think it's time to close this down as the discussion isn't progressing.