What would be proof that God exists?

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Proof enough for me that god, which in my opinion is nothing, exists is the necesity of balance.
 

xt

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It really depends on what you define god is.

If one claims the originator of everything is god or everything is a part of god, then god must exist.

But this type of god is not the one that we associate with religiously, its just a general philosophical definition of everything or origin of the universe.

People who argue for or against the existence of god seem to confuse the two types together, for example a religious person would argue: "if god did not exist then what created everything? is there no explaination? and things move therefore there must be a first mover... god." The argument is logical, but that person is missing the whole point. Most people who don't believe in the "religious" god, don't believe it because they can't see how the fictional type stuff like heaven and hell really exists without any evidence at all.

Its the "definition" of god that people's views differ on.

Religion and Science are both ways to explain how the universe works. Science is based on deterministic principles while religion is based on elementary human intuition.
 
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Proof Is Impossible

I've said it before and i will say it again: "it is impossible to prove anything".

all we can do is list the reasons why we believe what we believe.

even when a carpenter with a laser ruler says that a board is 12' long, you can not prove he is right. cause, you can't prove that he, the ruler and board exist.

scientific proof is an agreement, to inderstand and manipulate the physical.

better to ask if one believes in a god and then ask for an explanation.

love & peace,
 
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xt said:
It really depends on what you define god is.

If one claims the originator of everything is god or everything is a part of god, then god must exist.

But this type of god is not the one that we associate with religiously, its just a general philosophical definition of everything or origin of the universe.

People who argue for or against the existence of god seem to confuse the two types together, for example a religious person would argue: "if god did not exist then what created everything? is there no explaination? and things move therefore there must be a first mover... god." The argument is logical, but that person is missing the whole point. Most people who don't believe in the "religious" god, don't believe it because they can't see how the fictional type stuff like heaven and hell really exists without any evidence at all.

Its the "definition" of god that people's views differ on.

Religion and Science are both ways to explain how the universe works. Science is based on deterministic principles while religion is based on elementary human intuition.
What makes you think it's fictional or not logical? I could diagram the reality of the universe for you. It is what is, but you would have to believe me would you not, unless of course you experienced it for yourself. 17 bone heads also said ah yes, it's real we have scientifc proof and yet you would still believe. 6,000,000,000 humans may also say ah yes it is true, but you would still believe. There is no substitue for experience, because experience is what is.
 
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ProtractedSilence said:
Lorentz,

I think we can read about how God has done some of the type of miracles I think you are looking for throughout the Bible. The ten plagues in Egypt, the parting of the Red Sea, the pillar of fire, burning bush, water from the rock, parting of the Jordan. What kinds of things were predicted and actually happened when Christ was around? sick healed, lame walk, blind receive sight, dead brought back to life, large crowds fed with almost no food, walking on water.

The Pharisees also demanded a sign from Jesus and this is what he told them:

Matthew 12:8-42 ?Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." 39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41 "The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.?

The point being that the Jews who demanded a sign of Christ's authority would have it in the form of history and that Gentiles would be converted and saved before the Jews.

A while later in Jesus? ministry, in Mark, we can read about Jesus healing a man in front of the Pharisees eyes. The response of the Pharisees to this miracle, this sign, is that they immediately begin plotting to kill Jesus. Even when they got the miracle they asked for, they did not believe. These people asked for a sign with the wrong motives, and so they did not get it.

I think that apply this today we can see a possible connection. People in this country have become very enamored with the sciences (which is not a bad thing). But as I said earlier, I think that if God did perform one of these miraculous physical signs, most people would respond not by praising God, but by attempting to figure out what scientific phenomena caused it. I think that most of the miracles that can be seen today in this country are in personal change, relationships, etc, because people can?t explain away these changes with science as easily. They are more willing to accept the possibility that God was involved.

the signs in egypt could be natural random events, and are not backed up by the records of the kingdom of egypt, in fact there is no mention of the jews or their leaving or the death of every first born is recorded and the bible never even names the pharroh so the whole thing is undateable
then the jews travel into the holyland and claim to subdue a land that in fact is a egyptian border land and under their control and rule and once again the egyptian records do not notice this???

3 days and 3 nights for JC in the earth????
btw there never was a man named jesus the name some "HOPE TO BE SAVED BY"
his mom called him ya-sho-wa modern name is joshua, and the name jesus is an tranlation ERROR
he "DIED" late friday,after only a few hours on the cross, note most people took several DAYS to die on the cross, then the body was taken down something prohibided by roman law, as the body was to rot in place, and was laid to rest just before the sundown beginning of the sabbath and he was up and gone by sunday morning sunrize that is two nights and ONE DAY by my count about 36 hours total, then moved to france with mary mags, without ever showing himself to the people or the rulers who "KILLED" him but only a few brief appearances to the faithfull ONLY, again with no offical notice, or record

IF there is a god, and he has a plan he wants me to follow , he would need to tell me about it, HIMSELF, not send some men to claim to know gods will

a brief study of the history of the claimed "MEN OF GOD" will quickly show no hand of god in the work of the church, only evil and greed in the power they misuse
 
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Proof of the Existence of God

Dear, certainly there are many physical proofs of the existence of God, one of them is the science religion. Mostof the followers of scientists just believe what they say, without any physical and real proof:

How did Johannes Kepler to measure the distances between any 'planet' and the sun and to be sure of his eliptical distances?

What single proof presented Galileo of his movements?

If newton did not know G how could he determine the F=GMm/r2?

The Optic Gyroscope works because the movement of the source of light affects the velocity of light, the opposite of the teaching of the false genius Einstein.

In the document http://geocities.com/jesuselcristos/hoaxology.html

you should find more of science hoaxology
 
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xt said:
It really depends on what you define god is.

If one claims the originator of everything is god or everything is a part of god, then god must exist.
Wrong!

Such an all encompassing being ('the everything') does not and can not exist, which can be explained using subtle logic.

To conclude that any specific thing exist, we must normally make an observation. It always requires there to be other things, which are independend and apart from the thing to observe.

We can't claim that the universe exists in the same way, since we aren't outside observers to the universe. We are part of it.

The universe does not exist alongside other things, and as such, we can not make any observations about the universe, we can only observe finite parts of the universe.

The universe itself is not distinguishable from nothing, it hasn't any physical properties.
 
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heusdens said:
Wrong!

Such an all encompassing being ('the everything') does not and can not exist, which can be explained using subtle logic.

To conclude that any specific thing exist, we must normally make an observation. It always requires there to be other things, which are independend and apart from the thing to observe.

We can't claim that the universe exists in the same way, since we aren't outside observers to the universe. We are part of it.

The universe does not exist alongside other things, and as such, we can not make any observations about the universe, we can only observe finite parts of the universe.

The universe itself is not distinguishable from nothing, it hasn't any physical properties.
aren't we also outside the 'physical' universe at this very moment??? i submit that we exist on many levels and the non-physical self can observe our physical universe and pass on this information to the consciouness of the physical being.

aren't there many paralell universes existing with us at this moment?? i believe we get caught up with the physical universe and limit our thinking to what we can see and touch. we are more! we can 'sense and feel'. i can easily accept that this physical universe of ours is but a portion of the UNIVERSE or omniverse that i sense exists.

will you agree that the uni-omni-verse includes our physical universe? it may be time for us to come up with a term that defines the physical universe(s) and another for the totality of all that exists within infinity/eternity?

love and peace,
olde drunk
 
there's a concept I think we should all recognize. Each person has his own beliefs. If you line up 10 christians and ask them what exactly is Christianity? What are the morals? What does God look like? All that bull****, you're going to get 10 different, but similar answers. Same with 10 Buddhists or Muslims. An individuals perception of Gods image is altered by his life experiences. A persons past does to their religious views, what hardware does to software. An individual may read the bible (software), but get a different idea because of who he/she (hardware) is.
There also happens to be many individuals that are not Christians, but pretend to be so people will respect them (not me). When they do something sleazy, this makes people hate Christians.
Some Christians are complete idiots that try to force their uneducated opinions on others, but some are decent, misled, people.
I happen to be Atheist. I don't believe there is a god. It's hard to think how the whole world, space, ect. could've been created to how it is without someone to govern, though. I know about nebulas and all that ****, but how was the matter created in the first place? This just leads to so many questions. The answers to these questions many find is God.
I'm totally fine with the love and peace thing, but many people take religion too seriously to be peaceful about it, including me. I get really angry when people try to create religious views into law. I'm fine if people leave me out of their ignorance. I actually know a Christian girl. I admire the fact that she keeps her religion to herself. I speak out against religion in public a lot. I cut it out around her though, because she's shown the respect not to try to convert me. It is true that I will speak out against religion with people present that aren't forcing there religion on me. I'm making it sound like I set up a stage in front of the mall, lol.
I have a friend that is a Satanist. I agree with a lot of his ideas. He's not the stereotype of a Satanist. He does not sacrifice goats, or burn churches down. He does have a good understanding of balance though.

I'll get to my summary, everyone has their own individual religious view. While some may be similar, no two people have the exact same religious views. Some people use the Christian name so people will trust them, giving Christians a bad reputation in some cases. Although I'm Atheist, it seems as if there had to have been a god at some point in time. I think religion is fine if it promotes love and peace, even Satanism.

Trash comes in all wrappers. Black, white, mexican, blonde hair, brown eyes, gay, straight, gothic, punk, Christian, Satanist, Jewish, young, old, rich, poor. Some races, lifestyles, ages, religions, ect. have a higher percentile of trash if you line up 100 of that type of person. That's all I am saying for now, I could go on and on into other topics or stay on the religion. Thank you for reading.

also, whomever wrote "I certainly can't accept that there is a loving and just god that
would allow someone to suffer for eternity. Justice implies a proportionality between crime and punishment, no finite crime balances against an infinite punishment." That is very well put. You have an excellent sense of balance.
 
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olde drunk said:
aren't we also outside the 'physical' universe at this very moment??? i submit that we exist on many levels and the non-physical self can observe our physical universe and pass on this information to the consciouness of the physical being.

aren't there many paralell universes existing with us at this moment?? i believe we get caught up with the physical universe and limit our thinking to what we can see and touch. we are more! we can 'sense and feel'. i can easily accept that this physical universe of ours is but a portion of the UNIVERSE or omniverse that i sense exists.

will you agree that the uni-omni-verse includes our physical universe? it may be time for us to come up with a term that defines the physical universe(s) and another for the totality of all that exists within infinity/eternity?

love and peace,
olde drunk
That's a matter of terminology, the universe as far as we can observe, can be called "observable universe", and we don't need omni/multi verse, the term universe already includes those.
 
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Who does the will of God, What is the will of God? Jesus knew these answers and God the Father already knows these answers.
If you dont know these answers you walk in fear and darkness.. You walk in sin..

Jesus said "The Father knows the Son and the Son knows the Father" which means simply that the Father knew and could read the knowledge thoughts of Jesus and those thoughts revealed to the Father that Jesus new the form of the Father.
Because it is the Fathers Will that we come to the full knowledge of the Father the Holy Spirit (the light of this world).
The Father is spirit.. Your Life force is spirit.. Your brothers Life force is spirit.. If you hate your brothers spirt you hate Gods Spirit..

The spirit of God turns the earth that you may have day and night and the seasons..
Jesus walked on water to reveal the living God to you in this way he reveals the Father (He walked with the law of God in his heart and mind for He new and loved his Father) who is the fundamental Holy Spirit POWER of the universe.

God is the fundamental foundation of light itself (GRAVITY energy)..
Come to the full knowledge of that light, and then you will find and come to the full knowledge of your God the Father and your own Spirit.

You were a part of the Spirit of God before you were born, and you will be a part of the Spirit of God Spirit when you say you die (You lived before and you will live after, God willing), and for now while you here on earth you are the Spirit of God in the flesh, For Jesus told you, is it not written 'You are a Gods'.
Please understand and dont walk lower than the animals.. May God Bless you and forgive your ignorance..

Seek the knowledge of the Spirit, the laws of light / gravity, your God.. This is His Will and all that he will ever ask of you...Love Him and he will reveal and show you all things as Jesus has already told you..
 
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DavidSF said:
The spirit of God turns the earth that you may have day and night and the seasons..
yes, but let's not forget that superman could reverse the rotation of the Earth, so I guess the spirit met his match .....

Jesus walked on water to reveal the living God to you in this way he reveals the Father (He walked with the law of God in his heart and mind for He new and loved his Father) who is the fundamental Holy Spirit POWER of the universe.
http://whyfiles.org/shorties/015walk_on_water [Broken] can walk on water also...

God is the fundamental foundation of light itself (GRAVITY energy)..
Come to the full knowledge of that light, and then you will find and come to the full knowledge of your God the Father and your own Spirit.
Well Einstein would be really glad to hear that the foundation of gravity is light and not the geometry of the space....

I guess you missed the title of the thread, specifically the word proof
 
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heusdens said:
That's a matter of terminology, the universe as far as we can observe, can be called "observable universe", and we don't need omni/multi verse, the term universe already includes those.
i agree. my point is that our physical universe is nestled inside a larger universe. to often when the word universe is used it is taken to mean the physical.

it is also quite possible that our larger unvirse is nestled inside another, etc, etc, ad infinitum.

is the total of all universes, god??? feels like it.

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
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i agree that i am god as jesus said. that's why he is/was a wise man. unfortunately, we place a mystical meaning to the phrase and ignore the real meaning. we each control our destiny, we are one with whatever god is.

now all we gotta do is be true to ourselves and honor our neighbor as ourself. this done, listen to the inner you and you will find your definition of god. i submit that the definition is uniquely individual and defies a definition to satisfy everyone.

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
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Proof

You want proof.....

The definition of space-time, can it be seperated from gravity or light? do you know your fourth dimensional motion (velocity) through the heavens? do you know the length of your second? do you truly know the real processes of electromagnetic propagation? much of this is still probably mystical and called phenomena to you.

Why is the kingdom of heaven within you? did you not know that inside the atom is an inverted mirror of what is occurring within the heavens.
Jesus said "all things come to them as parables because their is no root in them"
For this reason you do not know that the square root of the electron compton wavelength is, one over your total combination of galactic velocity vectors.

Einstein also understood that three dimensional geometry could not describe space time, as his theory of relativity predicts.

Atomic mass can modify space time can it not? If it can then space time must be able to modify atomic mass structure. which says that space time is not as empty as you may think. Its full of God...

If mass is convertible to energy then energy is convertible to mass.

Your God is Energy, the very structure of space time which we can modulate and send waves through, all frequencies which travel at a singular speed, for this reason he sees everything.

God is the carrier of all sources of electromagnetic light, he even bought my advice to you.

And you wanted proof,

It is all around you. But this you see, but alas you dont see. God forgive You.
 
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DavidSF said:
You want proof.....

The definition of space-time, can it be seperated from gravity or light? do you know your fourth dimensional motion (velocity) through the heavens? do you know the length of your second? do you truly know the real processes of electromagnetic propagation? much of this is still probably mystical and called phenomena to you.

Why is the kingdom of heaven within you? did you not know that inside the atom is an inverted mirror of what is occurring within the heavens.
Jesus said "all things come to them as parables because their is no root in them"
For this reason you do not know that the square root of the electron compton wavelength is, one over your total combination of galactic velocity vectors.

Einstein also understood that three dimensional geometry could not describe space time, as his theory of relativity predicts.

Atomic mass can modify space time can it not? If it can then space time must be able to modify atomic mass structure. which says that space time is not as empty as you may think. Its full of God...

If mass is convertible to energy then energy is convertible to mass.

Your God is Energy, the very structure of space time which we can modulate and send waves through, all frequencies which travel at a singular speed, for this reason he sees everything.

God is the carrier of all sources of electromagnetic light, he even bought my advice to you.

And you wanted proof,

It is all around you. But this you see, but alas you dont see. God forgive You.
i do NOT need god's forgiveness. i do gods work, my way. my god doen't require that i know the definition of 'mass' or go to mass. he doesn't care if i ignore or worship. my god only expects that i be me and respect all of creation. AND, i don't need to tithe.

my god is energy! amen.

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
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DavidSF said:
You want proof.....

The definition of space-time, can it be seperated from gravity or light? do you know your fourth dimensional motion (velocity) through the heavens? do you know the length of your second? do you truly know the real processes of electromagnetic propagation? much of this is still probably mystical and called phenomena to you.

Why is the kingdom of heaven within you? did you not know that inside the atom is an inverted mirror of what is occurring within the heavens.
Jesus said "all things come to them as parables because their is no root in them"
For this reason you do not know that the square root of the electron compton wavelength is, one over your total combination of galactic velocity vectors.

Einstein also understood that three dimensional geometry could not describe space time, as his theory of relativity predicts.

Atomic mass can modify space time can it not? If it can then space time must be able to modify atomic mass structure. which says that space time is not as empty as you may think. Its full of God...

If mass is convertible to energy then energy is convertible to mass.

Your God is Energy, the very structure of space time which we can modulate and send waves through, all frequencies which travel at a singular speed, for this reason he sees everything.

God is the carrier of all sources of electromagnetic light, he even bought my advice to you.

And you wanted proof,

It is all around you. But this you see, but alas you dont see. God forgive You.
hmm I am still missing the proof part

And quit trying to post with the enlighted theme... it makes you seem like you are superior to us, pure in some fashion... I am sure god wouldn't want this now.

Hmm I didin't realize time was heaven... as I travel through the 4th dimension... however this does bring up something funny. The faster i move the more I am removed from heaven. Lol
 
Religion topics are always a good time. I guess I'll join in on this one. :) I consider myself Agnostic because I'm in the middle of the situation. But if God turns out to exist I believe it might be possible to achieve proof. So I'm not sure what my grammatical religion would be called.

I can see the perspective of an Atheist well enough. Its like if someone said. There are 23 more planets in the Solar System but they have no proof. However since I personally can't disprove that I don't completely exclude the possibility.

No offense to Christians, but I find Christianity somewhat ironic. The way the beliefs are organized its almost like an interesting fairy tale. I'm sure some people read it as fiction. Some Christian beliefs aren't logical either.

I believe God would be much wiser than portrayed and would've at least explained his reasoning in any book provided to earth. With Christianity the Bible just dismisses something with no logic behind the dismissal. Therefore, I don't believe in the Christian God. Its possible, but I think its quite unlikely.

I'm fairly flexible when it comes to possibilities. I don't think illogical religious beliefs should be considered in government. Thou shall not do something. Why not? I'm disgusted when illogically backed up religious statements are used in government.

I'm not sure what my religion is but to believe in God I think I'd have to see him personally and have a lengthy discussion with him. Depending on how convincing he was I might talk longer or dismiss his statement.

I look at more things from an Atheist standpoint most of the time. It allows me to more logically look at situations and lets me take advantage of life to the fullest without basing my decisions on a possible afterlife.

However when I'm having a bad time I might pray. Prayer helps when nobody else can understand or is around. I think I've done this maybe 3 times since I shifted from parentally influenced Catholic beliefs. Whether or not God is up there Prayer and belief helps people when nothing else can. This is perhaps a reason why people cling so tightly to their religious beliefs. If they do not have them, they have to come up with their own morals. On top of that, they may be alone or fear death more. Many other factors could influence the entire subject.

I hope I didn't offend people. It looks from above that the conversation is fairly heated. If anyone knows what religion I would be considered I'd love to know. ~Thanks.
 
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"What would be proof that God exists?"

I know of at least three proofs that would work for me.

1) If everyone else believed it, I'd believe it.

2) If everyone who didn't believe it got burned at the stake, I'd believe it.

3) In a more practical vain, this would also work for me:

I examine a stack of 52 cards to ensure that it's a regulation deck. I immediately shuffle the deck to my satisfaction. I immediately deal ten poker hands from the top of this shuffled, regulation deck, and they all have four of a kind. At that point, I would believe in god!
 
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I think there's a general misunderstanding with regards to science. Scientists don't "believe" things, nor do they rely on scientific literature in the same sense as theists utilize scripture. Scientists weigh evidence and develop theories. The value of a theory is its ability to make experimentally-verifiable predictions.

Thus, when addressing any particular religion, one might ask: what is the strength of the evidence? What predictions does it make, and how can we test them?

I recommend the following book:

https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/flex-sign-in/ref=cm_rate_rev_pagepos3/104-1549182-3438313#rated-review
 
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Hmm, the link I posted above didn't take for some reason. The book is the DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD, by Carl Sagan. It is pretty easy to find on Amazon, and discusses how many people come to certain beliefs (not simply religion, but also such things as UFOs, alien abductions, psychic powers, etc.) and how to think logically about things.
 
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Tom MucCurdy seems to think I am trying to be a little superior.. This is not so.. To learn from the Spirit of God you must first learn to become humble, only then can you listen to God to learn and become wise..
(A wise man listens that he may become a little wiser).

If a man has wisdom, others without that wisdom thinks he may be inferior and immediately may accuse the other of trying to be superior.

Jesus said "knowledge is justified by its children".

I say "we are what we eat and drink"..

In a physics forum can I ask if anyone can answer me this - what is the Alpha? and what is the omega? for God says "I am the apha and the omega".

Also can somebody tell me, what velocity must I obtain to be waitless at the surface of the earth? (Think very carefully).

And for proof let me say this.

The Son of Man stands with the scientific institutions on the one hand and the religious institutions on the other hand and could very easily be saying "Come listen to me for I am the light of this world, for you both seek the ultimate knowledge of God, understand that their is only one truth and that truth encompasses all, for you both seek that very same truth".

I hope that you will eat a little truth every day, (the bread from heaven) that it may nourish you and then one day you will understand.

And to jdavel , remember what Jesus said "Wide is the road to perdition and many go in by it, but narrow is the path and few find it". Suggest you look beyond the cards.

God forgives you, so you also learn to forgive.

Who of you has a child who asks what he can do for his Father, but only children who are always asking the Father to do things for them.

Somebody once said to me "What does God want from me?". I said "He wants the one thing that you will never give to Him, Your time, For he has time for you, but you have no time for Him".
 
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Janitor

Science Advisor
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the square root of the electron compton wavelength is, one over your total combination of galactic velocity vectors- David
David, due especially to the bit I just quoted, I suspect you are having fun pulling our legs. But if by chance you are serious, how about elaborating on that for us? Maybe even plug in some numbers, if you would be so kind. And who was the author of the book or article or tract from which you got that?
 
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Dear janitor,
That information is not in the current science books, and I discoved the information after reading the words of Christ "The kingdom of heaven is within you".

This prompted me to seek out why he had said this I and discovered much much more than this about atomic physics.

At this time the physicists and institutions look at the atom with a very narrow minded viewpoint. They put the atom within a small box and ignore anything outside of that box, ignoring the fact that the tiny atom is travelling at over 2.3 million kilometres per hour through space time for a reason.

If you break this speed down to metres per second to conform with the standard SI metre per second format, then consider and relate this value to our atronomical galactic spin and galactic velocity conditions, you will note that you are almost there.

If I give you the formulae I give the world the formulae, and the scripture advises me not to caste my pearls before the swine lest they trample you underfoot.

I have given you more than enough information, Seek and ye shall find for nothing is hidden that will not come to light..

You are and will be dealing with the core of relativity, in that the time needed to cover 1 metre wavelength at galactic speeds is incredibly small.

No I am not, nor will at anytime, pull anybodies leg.

I ask you this, If you had the knowledge of God. Would you share it indescriminately, or be very cautious as to who it is given to.

Believe that it is there and it will be according to your belief, and be patient, It is not easy to shake off some of the miss-leeding information which can be found in the present day institutions.

DavidSF
 

Janitor

Science Advisor
1,095
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Brother David,

I had a suspicion that the knowledge of galactic vectors might be straight from God’s mouth to your ear. I agree that it is a dangerous gift to be in touch personally with He Who Is Above All Things. I understand completely.
 

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