What would be proof that God exists?

[Nicomachus]

Nico, I don't threaten you, because I did not write those passages within the scripture, is this maybe your own conscience speaking..

We are not acheiving anything or getting anywhere, let's just leave it at that, and agree to dissagree, I am happy with that fact, and others can make up their own minds.

I appologise if you feel I may have insulted you, if I did it was not intentional, I was probably generalising considering the amount of terrorism and wars which are in this world..

Keep safe
David.

There you go again with your self-righteousness. No it is not my "conscience" talking, it is you and your nonsense. Defend yourself. You entered this thread with only the intention of proselytizing; why have you not responded to any criticism? I don't care about your irrelavent and emotional Bible verses, they have no relavence. Now you are going on some tangent about terrorism. Nonsense. All you have are vacuous arguments and you try to distract others away from your erroneous assertions with all these kind of statements. Don't be so intellectually dishonest; defend the criticism or concede.
*Nico

 

[dschouten]

OLDE DRUNK:

man's very nature is GOOD! (he is in the likeness of god). we only see the negative when we believe in the evil of man.
as you BELIEVE, so shall it be.

First, I must tell you how I much I empathise with you and your attempts to at least broach the topic reasonably with the oft-debunked wierdo DavidSF.

Nonetheless, the above quote is a farce, and shouldn't be allowed to pass by without reproach. Consider, if man's nature is good, whence this belief in the evil of man? Specifically, who is doing the believing? I can only assume that man is believing in the evil of man...which begs the question, why would a good being invent a belief in its own evil?

 

[dschouten]

I don't care about your irrelavent and emotional Bible verses, they have no relavence.

Of course you do, otherwise this forum wouldn't even exist...

For all the atheists out there, we sure spend a lot of time talking about God.

 

[Nicomachus]

Of course you do, otherwise this forum wouldn't even exist...

For all the atheists out there, we sure spend a lot of time talking about God.

dschouten, no you must understand what I mean. I meant that I do not care about the particular Bible verses he recited pertaining to emotional pleas and speaking of me going to hell or being ignorant. The verse about the Sower and so forth are perfectly fine for this discussion. Quoting random verses though, I find irrelavent and unproductive.
*Nico

 

[dschouten]

dschouten, no you must understand what I mean. I meant that I do not care about the particular Bible verses he recited pertaining to emotional pleas and speaking of me going to hell or being ignorant. The verse about the Sower and so forth are perfectly fine for this discussion. Quoting random verses though, I find irrelavent and unproductive.
*Nico

Ok, sounds good.

 

[DavidSF]

Nico,
Why do you seem so intent on trying to prove that there is no God? if this is your intent, then who in the world could say anything that could change your mind.
Tell us, define for us, what is the truth for you Nico, what would you call proof of God's existence.

Just so that you can complain again about my irrelavent information, this is the truth in my eyes.

Proverbs 6:
23. For the commandment is a lamp, and the law is light; reproofs of instruction are the way of life.

David

 

[olde drunk]

Nico,
Why do you seem so intent on trying to prove that there is no God? if this is your intent, then who in the world could say anything that could change your mind.
Tell us, define for us, what is the truth for you Nico, what would you call proof of God's existence.

Just so that you can complain again about my irrelavent information, this is the truth in my eyes.

Proverbs 6:
23. For the commandment is a lamp, and the law is light; reproofs of instruction are the way of life.

David

if i may butt in? lol

no one said they didn't believe in god.

we simply found your blind faith foolish. quoting the bible, to people who dismiss it as a source of valid information, is fruitless.

to my satisfaction, i have proved, to myself, that there is something. i would rather discuss the nature of reality with an atheist than a bible banger. we can expand our beliefs without trying to change the other.

i do not believe that there is a PATH. we each have our own personal path that leads us toward fulfillment.

in reality, no one can prove anything. we each must find our truth.

dschouten

which begs the question, why would a good being invent a belief in its own evil?

who knows? is it possible that that the church elders said/did this to control the faithful? in other words, you don't understand what we know, and BECAUSE you have the capability to do evil you must believe us. and, oh yeah, it is this evil nature that will deny you heaven, BUT, listen to us and we will show you how to gain heaven.

oh, what is heaven? gee, let's see. ummmm, it is a glorious place where you can have any and everything you wish; even 69 virgins. so? is it worthwhile listening to and obeying us?

does this sound like the best marketing scheme, EVER?

that's my guess. since rejecting traditional beliefs, ironically, i have found a better world. think real hard. don't you feel better when you do something nice and worse when you do something wrong? these feelings, for me, bespeak the true nature of man.

perhaps an oversimplification, but it works.

love&peace,
olde drunk

 

[DavidSF]

Ye olde drunk,
Have you not caught on yet, can't you see where I am coming from, I am the exact opposite to a Bible banger, if you went to the church with what I have said, they would throw you out, big time man.

We have an invisible all powerful energy (God 'For thine is the kingdom, the POWER and the glory forever') which works according to the rules of electrical and the electromagnetic energy laws of nature (he created all things even electrical energy 'comprendeee'). And the fundamental structure of space time itself. (have you heard the biblical expression 'Sit at the right hand of God' do you know the right hand rule for electromagnetic energy).

Please don't tell me the creator of the universe cannot see the future and has not had a hand in our current day terminolgy.

I have already said that the church doctrine is inadequate in that:
Mathew 23:
13. "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

I tried to represent to you all an alternate scientific viewpoint, It has personally led me into an incredible technical insite into the functioning of our atomic universe.

All I am saying is look for yourselves, don't just take my word for it. It is enough that I draw your attention to it.

I know that your first impressions are of immense dis-belief, but you are all smart enough (I hope) to have the intelligence to understand that you should ask this question within your own minds:
Why over over thousands of years of blood, sweat and tears was the Bible written (Inspired by God) for you all, if it was not for your complete mental development, so that you could finally see in your mind and know your creator (Father), and understand the fundamental energy laws of the universe itself (after all God is the universe and these laws, he cannot break his own laws).

Step outside of the conventional church doctrines and look beyond the milk of the word.

Step into the knowledge that opens up the heavens to you. I can't make it any clearer for you all.

Good luck and God bless.

David.

 

[Janitor]

the Bible written (Inspired by God)- DavidSF

Some Believers go so far as to say that God essentially dictated the original words of the Bible directly to the human writers. Then, given the scripture which says something like "God is the same yesterday, today, and forever," it follows that God also speaks directly to modern Believers as well.

A challenge for David or any other Believer: Post for us the lead headline of the New York Times for July 1, 2004. Now you may well object on the basis that God doesn't want just anybody knowing such a piece of information ahead of time. If that is your objection, go ahead and post an anagram of the headline. (Example: OSAMA CAPTURED can be converted to the anagram AAACDEMOPSTU)

Or alternatively, tell us why God refuses to do this for you.

 

[loseyourname]

does this sound like the best marketing scheme, EVER?

It's an incredible con job when you think of it, to believe something now in exchange for life after death. Even corporations with all their reward systems don't try to make it posthumous. -- Gloria Steinem

 

[DavidSF]

How many people have had a premonition, given usually for the purpose of self preservation, to protect you, some even say I have a guardian angel.

We all receive visions and other information, in dreams or awake etc, a form of deja-vu, but most people have been told by others who don't receive much, it is just mere coincidences.

It doesn't matter whether asleep or awake, it still happens. It is in fact the ability of the mind to communicate, as a sort of extra sensory perception, prayer is a perfected example of this type of communication.

As far as the New York Times for July 1, 2004 goes, All I received is "Though shall not tempt the Lord thy God", Sorry.

David.

 

[loseyourname]

God still speaks to you in Elizabethan English?

 

[DavidSF]

It is not me who speaks:
John 6:
56. "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

 

[NeutronStar]

If God would buy me a Mercedes Benz that'd be proof enough for me.

 

[eureka]

Just a thought.. How could you explain the intricate design of the DNA? which is the signature of all living things.

if there's a design, there should be a designer.

 

[NeutronStar]

if there's a design, there should be a designer.

This is only true if the design is pre-planned. There's no logical reason to believe that DNA or living things were necessarily pre-planned.

 

[Nicomachus]

DavdSF, tsk tsk.

2 Peter 1.20: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of private interpretation. "

Oh, eureka, that's funny. I love the teleological, its so ridiculous. Anyway, you are begging the question so I don't see your point. heh.
*Nico

 

[PFanalog57]

Here is an interesting/strange proof:


http://www.talkaboutreligion.com/group/alt.religion.new/messages/3521.html

Mary Baker Eddy founded the church in 1879 in Boston
as a "scientific" Church. Her "science of God"
amounted to the following:

1. "God is mind"
2. "Heaven is a mental state"
3. God is a perfect man with a perfect mind
4. There is no perfect man on Earth

Now, bear in mind, this is the first religion in
history to make an actual scientific statement about
what God is: It says, "God is mind".

 

[Janitor]

Re Mary Baker Eddy

A good ten years ago I listened to quite a few of Bob Larson's Christian radio programs. That was back when his format was to invite people to phone him and discuss or debate his particular brand of Christianity. (I drifted away when his program evolved into on-the-air exorcisms.) If I am remembering correctly, he was especially abusive of Christian Science, in addition to Mormonism and maybe Jehovah's Witness.

 

[DavidSF]

Originally Posted by eureka
(Just a thought.. How could you explain the intricate design of the DNA? which is the signature of all living things.

if there's a design, there should be a designer.)

The true motions within the heavens for all atomic matter is spiral (not circular), from our relative perspective we incorrectly assume circular motion. The solar system is not stationary and the universal does not revolve around us, we move at high velocity through the universe.

For this reason the spiral DNA pattern is produced in the format it is. The Earth spirals around other bodies, for example the Sun. The created DNA cell pattern is therefore principlely designed, following the laws of the main spiral path, and the smaller refinements are inserted by more local daily spiral influences.

The laws constructing the spiral design are written in the scripture, The designer is God as he is the velocity/energy of these Spiral laws.

David

 

[DavidSF]

Dear Nico,
Go home and study, you don't have the intelligence to be able to answer my own personal questions let alone the question others. eureka asked a very intelligent question and you thought it was funny and ridiculous, he deserved a sensible answer.
I hope everybody has the intelligence to see you Nico for what you are.
There is much to learn by all and we learn by listening, in this way we become wise.

Proverbs 1:
5. A wise man will hear and increase learning, and a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,

David

 

[eureka]

Thank you for the support DavidSF :)

 

[dschouten]

The true motions within the heavens for all atomic matter is spiral (not circular), from our relative perspective we incorrectly assume circular motion. The solar system is not stationary and the universal does not revolve around us, we move at high velocity through the universe.

For this reason the spiral DNA pattern is produced in the format it is. The Earth spirals around other bodies, for example the Sun. The created DNA cell pattern is therefore principlely designed, following the laws of the main spiral path, and the smaller refinements are inserted by more local daily spiral influences.

David

The nonsensical drivel you continually perpetuate shouldn't be dignified with an argument against it. Yours are the foolish ramblings of a dreamer or conjurer who has thus far refused to bring any of his dreams or "hypothesis" (using the term loosely) to the test of reality.

In short, you should just shut your vitual mouth and take your new age mysticism back to the crack syringe it came from.

A much better explanation of DNA design (in point form for the sake of brevity):

1. Dogs bark
2. When ice freezes it is cold.
3. The universe is made of stuff.
4. Round things move helically.
5. Therefore, clearly, DNA.

A similar argument could establish David S.F.'s inability to reason:

1. The solar system is made of little fairy gods.
2. When my hair falls out, the spirt of the great bear weeps.
3. Smoking crack moves one up the ladder of zen.
4. Therefore, David cannot think.

 

[RAD4921]

Universe by design

The design argument for the existence of God seems to be the greatest proof of some sort of intelligence governing the universe. Indeed there is a great deal of complex organization in the universe and it is natural to ask why. Some people claim that Buddhist are atheist but this has to do with people who are "enlightened" claiming that the ultimate reality of the universe is beyond explanation.
Most atheist are people who are not very educated and are in conflict with their religion that predominates in their culture (For an instance, Christianity in the United States)or are nonbelievers for political reasons. The word "god" implies a being that is supreme and this can come into conflict of what consciousness might be. The idea of a hierarchy of consciousness is a turn off to some modern thinkers and these people may be labeled "atheist' simply for semantic reasons.
Well educated atheist argue the design argument for the existence of "god" say that the universe is the way it is because a roll of the dice. That a cyclic or an infinite replicating universe(s) would eventually produce a universe that would develope life and APPEAR highly organized.
Physicist Stephan Hawking said in his famous book' "A Breif History of Time", that the chances of the universe creating itself the way it is by accident, would be like a monkey randomly banging out a Shakespeare play on a typewriter.

I find great psycholgical comfort believing in an cosmic intelligence and I tend to lean in that direction because of the great amount of organization in the universe (The word organism comes from the word "organize". If I am wrong and my consciousness is mortal and I will fail to exist for eternity then that isn't so horrible. Some people claim that the idea of immortality frightens them. Who knows?
"For God to pass judgment upon us would be for him to pass judgment upon himself"---Albert Einsten

 

[DavidSF]

dschouten,

If your so clever why don't you explain the reason for DNA design to eureka.. If I am so wrong you must know the right facts okay, Oh sorry I had not noticed, you already did when you wrote the following.

"1. Dogs bark
2. When ice freezes it is cold.
3. The universe is made of stuff.
4. Round things move helically.
5. Therefore, clearly, DNA"

My appologies for not noticing before,

David

 

[DavidSF]

RAD4921
You mentioned the following:
"Well educated atheist argue the design argument for the existence of "god" say that the universe is the way it is because a roll of the dice".

Are you aware that Einstein has already said, "God does not play dice".

Sorry about the background noise in the forum, it may go away soon and we can all get into a serious discussion without being so distracted.

David.

 

[RAD4921]

To David

I think you are a very intelligent person. I agree that spirals are seen in all levels of the universe. From seashells, hurricanes, galaxies and the double helix of DNA just to name a few. :)

 

[RAD4921]

To David

Yes I am aware of that quote-while he was arguing quantum mechanics- (I am wearing my Albert Einstein tee shirt right now). He also said "body and soul are not two separate things but two different ways of perceiving the same thing"
Einstein and many physicists along with the majority of the great philosophers believed in God or some type of intelligence governing the universe. It is estimated that 4/5ths of the world's population believes in God and I am not in the minority:)

 

[DavidSF]

RAD4921, Thanks, my faith is restored, God did give some of us the ability to reason,
Isaiah 1:
18. "Come now, and let us reason together,'' says the Lord,
David

 

[DavidSF]

RAD4921,
God is sometimes referred to as being all knowledge and wisdom, It seems the more knowledge and wisdom we obtain about the universe and its operating principles, the closer we become to him and the more we become aware of his existence.

All the brilliant scientific minds of the past, generally developed a healthy respect for the existence of a God, This cannot be just a mere coincidence.

David