What's the point of freshman physics

[Frion]

It's not like a freshman who knows ODEs and Multivariable Calculus couldn't comprehend Classical Mechanics.

 

[G01]

Most freshman don't know ODE's and Multivariable Calculus...

Also, the point of freshman year physics is not just to introduce the concepts. That's only half of it. The other half is to teach students how to solve problems like scientists. Just because a student has a background in multivariable calculus, it does not mean they know how to use that knowledge to solve physics problems.

 

[Frion]

Wouldn't many physics major freshmen know these subjects, though? But my point wasn't that multivariable calculus and ODEs mean you automatically ace freshman physics. Rather, they equip you with the tools to comprehend classical mechanics where you can learn your problem solving along the way. For my personal experience, tinkering with (v^2)/r = a and mgh = 1/2mv^2 for most of a semester did not make a difference when it came to L = T-V. Sure a modified form of mgh=1/2mv^2 will appear, but the way a problem is solved is just very different from how it is solved in freshman physics.

 

[twofish-quant]

It's not like a freshman who knows ODEs and Multivariable Calculus couldn't comprehend Classical Mechanics.

Ummmmm. Freshman physics is a tiny, tiny, tiny subset of classical mechanics. If you think you can comprehend classical mechanics, you really don't understand classical mechanics.

Also the key skill that freshman physics teaches you is to break down a problem. It's a different skill then ODE, Multivariable calculus.

Finally, there is a difference between *could* and *is*. There's nothing that I know of that suggests that I *couldn't* be a good truck driver or a chef at a major restaurant. I *could* do those things, but because I haven't gone to trucking school or been a chef, I am not a qualified truck driver or chef, even if I *could* be.

 

[Nabeshin]

Wouldn't many physics major freshmen know these subjects, though?

No. Why would you assume they have taken these subjects in high school? The vast majority of high schools likely do not even offer a way to take these courses. To assume that freshman know these topics would be a terrible imposition on the 90% of them that do not, and not much benefit for those who already do. And like twofish and G01 have said, there is value in freshman physics courses beyond just the mechanics...

 

[twofish-quant]

The way a problem is solved is just very different from how it is solved in freshman physics.

In the standard undergraduate physics curriculum, the main purpose of freshman physics isn't to teach classical mechanics. It's to teach problem solving.

The reason that physics is a good way of doing that is that most people have an intuitive understanding of physics (I throw a ball to you, you can catch it, you know that if I throw something to you it makes an arch). The purpose of freshman physics is to link together mathematics with "gut knowledge". You know the shape of the path that a ball makes when you throw it, this is how to calculate it.

The thing about forces and energy is that people have "gut feelings" about what a force is. If hit you in the arm, that's a force.

If you start talking about Langrangians, then there's less of a connection with "gut feeling." If a student wants me to show then a force, I can hit them in the arm. If they want me to show them a Langrangian or Hamiltonian, there's no obvious way that I can show them that, and so if I start talking about Lagrangians or Hamiltionians, then they get good at calculation, but there isn't that connection to the "real world."

A lot of physics is about relating "formal math" to "gut feeling."

 

[jtbell]

Wouldn't many physics major freshmen know [ODEs and multivariable calculus], though?

Maybe at a place like MIT or Caltech.

 

[twofish-quant]

Maybe at a place like MIT or Caltech.

Not true.

You have a few people that manage to be able to do ODE's and multivariable calculus as a frosh, but 90% of MIT frosh have the standard pre-calculus college-prep curriculum.

Also, if you go to a high school where you can get good pre-calculus, you are already doing pretty good.

 

[ZapperZ]

It's not like a freshman who knows ODEs and Multivariable Calculus couldn't comprehend Classical Mechanics.

Wouldn't many physics major freshmen know these subjects, though? But my point wasn't that multivariable calculus and ODEs mean you automatically ace freshman physics. Rather, they equip you with the tools to comprehend classical mechanics where you can learn your problem solving along the way. For my personal experience, tinkering with (v^2)/r = a and mgh = 1/2mv^2 for most of a semester did not make a difference when it came to L = T-V. Sure a modified form of mgh=1/2mv^2 will appear, but the way a problem is solved is just very different from how it is solved in freshman physics.

I think most people overlook one important aspect of learning anything new, which is the SKILL involved in tackling a problem. It requires one to clearly identify a problem, figure out the principle involved, devise a way to solve it, etc. These are skill that can't be taught, but only acquired. Freshman physics not only introduce many physics concepts, but also forces the student to practice, practice, practice in solving problems until he/she gets a feel for how to approach something. As Mary Boas said in her book, the only way to learn how to solve problems is to sit down and solve problems!

The Lagrangian approach to solving mechanics requires that a student already have some sophistication in looking at the problem. The concept of center of mass, understanding what a central-force problem is, and the idea of energy conservation, etc. are all implicit understanding that are assumed when we jump into Lagrangian/Hamiltonian mechanics. Even if the student already have HAD the necessary mathematics, this subject is still difficult without the appropriate physics background. Try it with a Math major and stick him/her with Lagrangian/Hamiltonian mechanics question.

I still would like to know who are these freshman that you've met that already had ODE/PDE already.

Zz.

 

[Frion]

Ah, I phrased my original post rather poorly. Of course freshman physics has a point for engineering majors and such. Freshman physics is certainly good for those freshman who have a minimal mathematics background. My question should have more precisely been stated as "what is the point of making freshman physics a requirement". There are enough students out there who took MVC + ODE before their freshman year that my university's Math department has made it extremely easy to have those courses waived for math majors. Having taken Calculus BC in 10th grade, I certainly could have been one of those students if I had a ride to my local state university.

Overall, my initial perception was that freshman physics is the way it is mostly due to the mathematical background of most incoming freshmen. So I wanted to know if there is any reason it should be required for students who have learned the math needed to tackle a real mechanics course. From the replies, I gather that a lot of problem solving knowledge is transmitted through the freshman physics courses. I suppose I can't be a very good judge of it because once you learn something it becomes so obvious, you feel you could have learned it under much more difficult circumstances. My math major friend actually got me to think about this issue as it's already too late for me to make a choice about freshman physics. Too bad we can't perform an experiment since the physics department has strict guidelines. :P

 

[Skrew]

Calc based physics covers 3 terms, only 1 focus on mechanics.

Also classical mechanics textbooks(well the one I have) assumes you have already done a physics course which gave you the basics.

 

[flyingpig]

Not true.

You have a few people that manage to be able to do ODE's and multivariable calculus as a frosh, but 90% of MIT frosh have the standard pre-calculus college-prep curriculum.

Also, if you go to a high school where you can get good pre-calculus, you are already doing pretty good.

And that's how MIT almost always rise to the top on the Putnam exam right? NO! Those people have taken those course over and over again since High School.

 

[ZapperZ]

Ah, I phrased my original post rather poorly. Of course freshman physics has a point for engineering majors and such. Freshman physics is certainly good for those freshman who have a minimal mathematics background. My question should have more precisely been stated as "what is the point of making freshman physics a requirement". There are enough students out there who took MVC + ODE before their freshman year that my university's Math department has made it extremely easy to have those courses waived for math majors. Having taken Calculus BC in 10th grade, I certainly could have been one of those students if I had a ride to my local state university.

Overall, my initial perception was that freshman physics is the way it is mostly due to the mathematical background of most incoming freshmen. So I wanted to know if there is any reason it should be required for students who have learned the math needed to tackle a real mechanics course. From the replies, I gather that a lot of problem solving knowledge is transmitted through the freshman physics courses. I suppose I can't be a very good judge of it because once you learn something it becomes so obvious, you feel you could have learned it under much more difficult circumstances. My math major friend actually got me to think about this issue as it's already too late for me to make a choice about freshman physics. Too bad we can't perform an experiment since the physics department has strict guidelines. :P

I find it hard to make heads or tails out of this response. I now no longer have a clue of the point of this thread.

Zz.

 

[jtbell]

You have a few people that manage to be able to do ODE's and multivariable calculus as a frosh, but 90% of MIT frosh have the standard pre-calculus college-prep curriculum.

And that's how MIT almost always rise to the top on the Putnam exam right? NO! Those people have taken those course over and over again since High School.

Twofish-quant did his undergrad at MIT, so he knows something about the place. What's your source of information?

 

[Angry Citizen]

Having taken Calculus BC in 10th grade, I certainly could have been one of those students if I had a ride to my local state university.

Ha!

There is a point to freshman physics, and that's developing analytical skills. Any decent intro physics course is going to be hell on Earth even for those innumerable legions of kids with ODE's under their belt (hint: A BC kid like yourself isn't even close to that level). If you had it easy (perhaps in one of those oh-so-precious Physics C courses?), then you were doing it wrong.

 

[nlsherrill]

knowing "advanced" mathematics for a freshman physics course will be better than not knowing, but it still might not help you that much. Math isn't usually what's hard about physics. The intro classes teach you how to solve problems, not how to manipulate equations like so many people seem to believe. If you put almost any freshman no matter the math background into a classical mechanics course, they will almost certainly struggle. They won't even know the basics. That's the point of freshman physics.

 

[clope023]

Ah, I phrased my original post rather poorly. Of course freshman physics has a point for engineering majors and such. Freshman physics is certainly good for those freshman who have a minimal mathematics background. My question should have more precisely been stated as "what is the point of making freshman physics a requirement". There are enough students out there who took MVC + ODE before their freshman year that my university's Math department has made it extremely easy to have those courses waived for math majors. Having taken Calculus BC in 10th grade, I certainly could have been one of those students if I had a ride to my local state university.

Overall, my initial perception was that freshman physics is the way it is mostly due to the mathematical background of most incoming freshmen. So I wanted to know if there is any reason it should be required for students who have learned the math needed to tackle a real mechanics course. From the replies, I gather that a lot of problem solving knowledge is transmitted through the freshman physics courses. I suppose I can't be a very good judge of it because once you learn something it becomes so obvious, you feel you could have learned it under much more difficult circumstances. My math major friend actually got me to think about this issue as it's already too late for me to make a choice about freshman physics. Too bad we can't perform an experiment since the physics department has strict guidelines. :P

Not everyone had the opportunity to take Calculus in high school, let alone 10th grade, not everyone is fortunate enough to be as gifted as you bubski.

 

[hadsed]

And that's how MIT almost always rise to the top on the Putnam exam right? NO! Those people have taken those course over and over again since High School.

Twofish-quant did his undergrad at MIT, so he knows something about the place. What's your source of information?

Additionally, the Putnam exam doesn't require you learn material earlier. In fact, if you think about how some people don't develop as quickly as others, this could perhaps be detrimental to their basic understandings of calculus and differential equations. Have you looked at a Putnam problem? It's not your run-of-the-mill calculus/ode homework question, so doing those over and over again doesn't really help with your understanding (and this would be expected in a high school class for multivariable calculus or ODE's).

 

[lurflurf]

This is an interesting discussion.
The point of freshman physics is
a)To justify a larger physics faculty (with a larger budget) by offering a course non majors can be forced to take.
b)To inflict suffering upon anyone so unfortunate as to be subjected to such a course.
b')An added benifit is some of those unfortunates are premeds.
c)To give all the non English speaking t.a.'s an audince to practice their speaking skills.
d)To prop up the air rail/incline plane manufacture industry.

A better question may be, how should an introduction for much better prepared students differ from the standard introduction? There are several issues
1)One function of the introductory course is, it relays a standard body of knowledge that can be used for future reference. Some care would need to be taken to insure that the very well prepared students' gaps in knowlede (which they are almost sure to have) are filled in.
2)There is reason to believe that several elements of the standard course remain for historical and inertial reason, and if the standard course were rebuilt from the ground up it may look substantially different.
3)At many schools very well prepared students do not exist sufficient numbers to justify the existence of a special course.
4)Care should be taken insure the essential flavor of physics is maintained, and that mathematical complications do not become the center of the course.

 

[Klockan3]

Physics is not maths, just because someone knows maths doesn't mean that they also know physics. The point of the physics courses is not to teach you how to solve problems, instead they are about teaching you the physical concepts. If we did it like you wanted we would have even more people just memorizing formulas and such instead of trying to understand since as soon as people starts to struggle to keep up with the understanding they gradually switch over to a mainly plug and chug mindset.

 

[Choppy]

It's also worth pointing out that first year physics tends to be a bit of a normalizer course.

I don't know much about "advanced placement" courses, but advanced courses in high school even if they covered the exact same curriculum as the university class, there is going to be a broad range of students coming in who think they know something when in reality their skills sets differ tremendously.

One reason for the difference is that some high school teachers are awesome - better than professors. Others never took the subject to that level themselves and have been forced to teach it for one reason or another.

Part of establishing both a responsible and effective teaching program is to make sure that your incoming students have covered the fundamentals properly before moving on to the advanced material.

 

[Ryker]

It's also worth pointing out that first year physics tends to be a bit of a normalizer course.

This is actually something we've been explicitly told in our first Physics course at the university.

 

[twofish-quant]

And that's how MIT almost always rise to the top on the Putnam exam right? NO! Those people have taken those course over and over again since High School.

Ummm... I went to MIT as an undergraduate. There are some people at MIT who have extraordinary amounts of pre-college math training, but they are unusual. Most MIT frosh have the standard pre-calculus courses, and the number of people that place out of 18.01 and 18.02 isn't that large.

Also the Putnam exam is misleading since you only have a small subset of the school take the tests. Most people at MIT don't.

 

[twofish-quant]

2)There is reason to believe that several elements of the standard course remain for historical and inertial reason, and if the standard course were rebuilt from the ground up it may look substantially different.

One thing that is interesting is to look at how freshman physics has changed and why it has changed. MIT is doing new and original things with 8.01 and 8.02 and the standard course that they have today is very different from when I took it in 1987.

One of the great curriculum battles at MIT is whether or not physics should be a general institute requirement. This is part of a general institutional fight between the "old school" physics/mathematicians and the "new school" biologists/management people.

 

[twofish-quant]

One reason that I think MIT is a good school is that there is a lot of support and help for students in 18.01, 18.02, 8.01, and 8.02. One purpose behind those classes is to allow students that have difficulty in math and physics to catch up so they aren't behind once they move into upper division classes.

 

[WatermelonPig]

Intro E&M isn't really intuitive . . . which makes the class better IMO.