When did Saddam Hussien go crazy?

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  • #51
Nicool003
When did Saddam Hussien go crazy?
When did the shift happen, exactly? Was it in the between when American officials showed support for him, and when Iraq invaded Kuwait? If so, did we drop the ball in seeing him amass his forces on teh border, or did he just move really darned fast? Was it earlier, when he 'gassed his own people', which we followed with another half-decade of suport for him?

Well the date I am not sure of but I believe it was his first birthday... go figure.


The other half decade of support was under Bill Clinton. Our current Presidents father should have pushed harder when fighting saddam but the country did not side with him after they reached a certain point. Funny how Bill clinton comes into office, saddam gasses his own people, and everyone here is fine and dandy because it isn't affecting us.
 
  • #52
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
So, why do we hear all this talk about 'justice', 'freedom', and 'liberty', when in reality is is predominantly about power and money?
I said in general its predominantly about money. In this particular case, national security was the larger issue (imo). Freedom for the Iraqi people and money are tied for 2nd/3rd. Every case is different though. We even [gasp] occasionally take military action when the outcome doesn't help us at all economically.
 
  • #53
Zero
Originally posted by Nicool003
Well the date I am not sure of but I believe it was his first birthday... go figure.


The other half decade of support was under Bill Clinton. Our current Presidents father should have pushed harder when fighting saddam but the country did not side with him after they reached a certain point. Funny how Bill clinton comes into office, saddam gasses his own people, and everyone here is fine and dandy because it isn't affecting us.
OK, so now you are just making things up.
 
  • #54
kyleb
well Zero, it does sound a little better when russ tells it like that.
 
  • #55
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
OK, so now you are just making things up.
You did know about Saddam's gassing of the Kurds, right? And Clinton's backing away from Iraq, right? What exactly did he just make up?
 
  • #56
Njorl
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Nicool stated that Saddam gassed the Kurds while Clinton was president. He most certainly did not.

Njorl
 
  • #57
Zero
Originally posted by russ_watters
You did know about Saddam's gassing of the Kurds, right? And Clinton's backing away from Iraq, right? What exactly did he just make up?
He didn't say 'backing away', he said 'supporting', which is made up. As far as the gassing, it is not clear who did what, but it happened in 1988...was Clinton president then?
 
  • #58
russ_watters
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You guys are right about the gassing, I stand corrected.

However, I still consider backing away from our hard stance against Iraq to be tantamount to supporting his regime. I am convinced if Gore was in office that would have continued and we would now be back to 1990 with no UN sanctions and Saddam thinking the world will sit back and let him pillage and plunder his way across the peninsula.
 
  • #59
Zero
Do you mean the sanctions that Cheney tried to have lifted?
 
  • #60
Njorl
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Originally posted by russ_watters
You guys are right about the gassing, I stand corrected.

However, I still consider backing away from our hard stance against Iraq to be tantamount to supporting his regime. I am convinced if Gore was in office that would have continued and we would now be back to 1990 with no UN sanctions and Saddam thinking the world will sit back and let him pillage and plunder his way across the peninsula.
It was during the Clinton administration that the CIA started tipping off inspectors to get some big finds. It was during the clinton administration that sanctions were narrowed to allow only food and medicine into Iraq. It was during the Clinton administration that the US policy was changed from containment to regime change.

Njorl
 
  • #61
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Njorl
It was during the Clinton administration that the CIA started tipping off inspectors to get some big finds. It was during the clinton administration that sanctions were narrowed to allow only food and medicine into Iraq. It was during the Clinton administration that the US policy was changed from containment to regime change.

Njorl
Njorl, thats nice, but it was also in the Clinton administration that the inspectors LEFT Iraq. Talk is cheap. Clinton didn't DO anything. His lack of action was tantamount to appeasement.
 
  • #62
Nicool003
OK, so now you are just making things up.

Well I think Russ pretty much settled that but if not I will clear it up in a second.



Nicool stated that Saddam gassed the Kurds while Clinton was president. He most certainly did not.

Don't put words in my mouth. Re-read the post it was a little unclear but I was in a rush.


The other half decade of support was under Bill Clinton. Our current Presidents father should have pushed harder when fighting saddam but the country did not side with him after they reached a certain point. Funny how Bill clinton comes into office, saddam gasses his own people, and everyone here is fine and dandy because it isn't affecting us.
I posted that. I will fix it now.

The other half decade of support was under Bill Clinton. Our current Presidents father should have pushed harder when fighting saddam but the country did not side with him after they reached a certain point. Funny how Bill clinton comes into office, AFTER saddam has gassed his own people, and he does nothing. Oh and Just for YOU Njorl and Zero, yes he gassed his people before it but the former President Bush DID SOMETHING about it however when clinton came in he was just fine with whatever the heck Iraq did or wanted to do. Is that better?
 
  • #63
Nicool003
Njorl, thats nice, but it was also in the Clinton administration that the inspectors LEFT Iraq. Talk is cheap. Clinton didn't DO anything. His lack of action was tantamount to appeasement.
Exactly Russ. He didn't do anything because he was afraid he would become less popular and would not get elected.
 
  • #64
Siv
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Originally posted by Alias
No one is perfect.
But you see, apparently to people like you, America is perfect.
Because it can do no wrong and there is always a rationalisation for its actions.

I'm sure you really believe that yourself.
Well ... patriotism is a religion after all. There's nothing rational about it :smile:

- S.
 
  • #65
damgo
Njorl, thats nice, but it was also in the Clinton administration that the inspectors LEFT Iraq. Talk is cheap. Clinton didn't DO anything. His lack of action was tantamount to appeasement
Does anyone else remember Desert Fox? Or Desert Thunder?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_strike.htm
[PLAIN]http://www.goog4334le.com [Broken]
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_thunder.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/desert_fox.htm
[PLAIN]http://www.goog4334le.com [Broken]
http://www.goog4334le.com

Under Clinton, the USA hit Iraq with massive air strikes multiple times when it failed to behave. When Iraq began blocking UN inspectors, ~30,000 troops were deployed to the region as a threat. This is not "appeasement."

Clinton did not start a major ground war, no; the policy then was upholding the UN resolutions, not preemptive strikes and regime change. Even if Clinton had wanted to invade Iraq -- perhaps he did, I don't know -- he could not have because he had zero political backing. I highly doubt Congress would have authorizated such a war then. (required by the WPA) Were it not for 9/11, I doubt Bush would have been able to start this war, either.

So can we all quit this sniping? Perhaps a different president would have chosen a different policy, but it's IMHO naive and a little juvenile to try and boil it down to "Clinton appeased Iraq because he was a coward."
 
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  • #66
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Siv
But you see, apparently to people like you, America is perfect.
Heh. right, Siv. Find us one place where ANYONE claims the US is perfect. By definition a patriot does NOT think their country is perfect. In fact, read any of my posts on the subject. I state explicitly on about a dozen occasions that the US is *NOT* perfect. We are 'merely' the best. I should just put that in my sig - its getting redundant.
 
  • #67
russ_watters
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Originally posted by damgo
Under Clinton, the USA hit Iraq with massive air strikes multiple times when it failed to behave. When Iraq began blocking UN inspectors, ~30,000 troops were deployed to the region as a threat. This is not "appeasement."
Define "massive" airstrikes. After the first bombing of the WTC, clinton fired about 50 cruise missiles. Massive? No. "Ineffective" is a better word. Or maybe "pointless..." Or are you referring to the no fly zones? We bombed SAM and AAA sites about once a week for the past 12 years. But thats hardly putative action for a major wrong from Saddam.

30,000 troops? Thats about 10% of what we have in the region right now. And what exactly did that accomplish by the way? - did those troops convince Saddam he should let the inspectors do their jobs? Clearly no. Did Clinton press the issue? Clearly no.

That word "ineffective" is the perfect word to describe Clinton's foreign policy. Further I think that was by design. He wanted to APPEAR to care without actually doing what is necessary to show it.
 
  • #68
Bystander
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Originally posted by Zero
So, why do we hear all this talk about 'justice', 'freedom', and 'liberty', when in reality is is predominantly about power and money?
Or, when did it start? For the U.S., economic motives have been cloaked in noble rhetoric since the Am. Rev. --- that's probably habit or custom from Europe; when did they start? Borrowed it from their Roman roots, and so on, and on back through history we go.

The Cod (the fish --- this is not a typo of "cold") Wars are about the most honestly presented events I can recall at the moment. The biggest disasters in Am. history have taken place when the leadership lost sight of the economic aims, WW I, Korea, VN --- what else?
 
  • #69
Nicool003
But you see, apparently to people like you, America is perfect.
No one thinks America is perfect and there isn't a perfect country out there. Period.
 

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