Where Does the Energy of Cyclotron Radiation Come From? Solving the Paradox

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the paradox of energy conservation in the context of cyclotron radiation emitted by a rotating charged ring. Participants explore the implications of this radiation on the system's rotational energy and angular momentum, considering both theoretical and practical aspects of the phenomenon.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the paradox, proposing two possible sources for the energy of emitted photons: either from the rotational energy of the system, which would slow its rotation, or from "nothing," which contradicts thermodynamics.
  • Another participant agrees that if energy comes from the rotational energy, the system must slow down, but argues that the photons carry momentum, suggesting that this aspect is manageable.
  • A different viewpoint asserts that a uniformly charged ring rotating about its axis does not radiate, challenging the premise of the paradox.
  • One participant references Maxwell's equations to support the claim that constant electric current does not produce radiation, noting historical context regarding early cyclotron discoveries.
  • Another participant suggests that replacing the continuous current with discrete bunches of electrons allows for radiation due to varying current density, indicating that the energy of radiation derives from the kinetic energy of the electrons and their electromagnetic field.
  • This participant also argues that radiation emitted carries away angular momentum, thus preserving conservation laws, and speculates on the existence of a perfect mirror and its implications for energy leakage.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the source of energy for cyclotron radiation, with some asserting that it comes from the system's rotational energy while others challenge the premise that such radiation occurs at all. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the assumptions made regarding the nature of the charged ring and the behavior of the radiation, particularly concerning the idealization of a perfect mirror and the conditions under which radiation occurs.

goran d
Messages
31
Reaction score
0
Description of the paradox:

We have a charged ring, which rotates at high speed. Since rotating charges produce cyclotron radiation, it emits photons. There is a toroidal mirror around the ring, spinning together with it. The mirror reflects the photons back inside, preventing them from escaping.
The paradox lies in the question, where does the energy of the photons come from. There are two possible answers:

1. The energy comes from the rotational energy of the system. This way, the energy is conserved, but then, the system has to slow down its rotation, which contradicts the law of conservation of angular momentum.
2. The system does not reduce it's rotation. Angular momentum is conserved, but then, the energy of the photons comes from nothing, which contradicts thermodynamics.
 
Last edited:
Science news on Phys.org
1. The energy comes from the rotational energy of the system. This way, the energy is conserved, but then, the system has to slow down its rotation, which contradicts the law of conservation of angular momentum.
The photons carry momentum, everything is fine.

For a perfect mirror, it does not matter if it rotates, by the way.
 
goran d said:
Since rotating charges produce cyclotron radiation, it emits photons.

A uniformly charged ring rotating about its axis does not radiate. (If you don't believe me, calculate the power radiated)
 
Vanadium is right, if the electric current was constant, there would be no radiation according to Maxwell's equations. In fact it is said that in the first years of cyclotrons, nobody expected radiation from them. It was discovered accidentally.

For more realistic description of the cyclotron radiation, we can replace the continuous current by a series of bunches of point-like electrons. One bunch contains many (>##10^9## ?) electrons. These move more-less like one big charged body and because of the separations between different bunches, there are points in space where the current density is no longer constant in time. Then we get radiation of energy from the electrons.

The paradox lies in the question, where does the energy of the photons come from.

The energy of radiation comes from the energy of the circling electrons, which consists of their kinetic energy and the electromagnetic energy of the field near them. There is no paradox with conservation of angular momentum, since the radiation emitted carries the lost angular momentum.

I think that perfect mirror does not exist, so sooner or later the radiation will leak out, but if it was there as a sort of spatial restriction (toroidal universe), the angular momentum of particles + field would be constant too.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 135 ·
5
Replies
135
Views
9K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
12K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
536