Where does this equation for an ellipse come from?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and validation of a specific equation for an ellipse presented in a professor's notes. Participants explore the relationship between parametric equations and the general equation of an ellipse, focusing on the implications of parameters and coordinate transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the validity of the professor's equation for the ellipse and seeks assistance in deriving it.
  • Another participant notes that if the difference between angles ##\phi_x## and ##\phi_y## is not an odd multiple of ##\frac{\pi}{2}##, the ellipse will be rotated, affecting the presence of the ##xy## term.
  • A suggestion is made to start with an ellipse in a rotated coordinate system and convert it to the x-y coordinates, matching terms to derive the parameters.
  • Participants discuss the distinction between a 'path' and a 'curve', emphasizing that the path equation is not parameterized, while the parametric equation shows how the path is traversed over time.
  • There is a suggestion that the subtraction of arguments in the parametric equations may lead to the elimination of time dependence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the derivation of the equation and the implications of the parameters involved. There is no consensus on the validity of the professor's equation or the method of derivation.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of deriving the equation and the potential for multiple interpretations of the parameters involved, which may depend on specific definitions and assumptions.

davidbenari
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I'm reading the professors notes and he gives this general equation for the ellipse. The professor has already been mistaken in some of his notes so I wanted you to help me validate what he's saying, as I can't prove the equation.

Suppose we have the vector ##\mathbf{r}=\big(x_o \cos(-\omega t + \phi_x), y_o \cos(-\omega t +\phi_y)\big)##

Then, he says that the general equation for the path is:

##\frac{x}{x_o}^2+\frac{y}{y_o}^2-\frac{2xy}{x_oy_o}\cos\delta=\sin^2\delta##

where ##\delta=\phi_y-\phi_x##.

So my question was where does this equation come from? How can I derive it? I know these type of equations are tedious to prove so it's okay if you give me a rough outline, or point me towards a source which does go through it. Or at least tell me you attest to its validity. I can't find the equation elsewhere and I haven't been able to prove it myself.

Thanks.
 
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If ##\phi_x-\phi_y## is not an odd multiple of ##\frac{\pi}{2}## the ##xy## term will be nonzero, so the ellipse axes will be rotated relative to the x and y axes.

Start with an x-y coordinate system and then consider a second coordinate system X-Y whose origin is at (u,v) in the x,-y coordinates and whose X and Y axes are angle ##\theta## to the anticlockwise direction from the x and y axes.

Consider an ellipse centred at (u,v) with semi-major and semi-minor axes of a and b aligned with the X and Y axes. The equation of that ellipse is ##\frac{X^2}{a^2}+\frac{Y^2}{b^2}=1##.

With a bit of messy trigonometry you should be able to convert that into an equation in x-y coordinates. Then match terms to the given equation and work out what ##\phi_x,\phi_y,x_0,y_0## represent in the diagram.
 
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Nice, i'll try it in a while. How would time dependence vanish though?
 
Oh I think I see it... The arguments would be subtracted, right?
 
The equation without time in it is an equation of a 'path', which differs from a 'curve' in that it is not parameterised. It simply specifies the set of points that are traced out by a particle following the curve. The equation with t in it is a parametrised equation, which shows how the path is traversed over time. A simple analog is the circle, whose parametric equation is ##x=r\cos t,\ y=\sin t## and the equation for the path traced out is ##x^2+y^2=1##.

I expect (but do not guarantee :wink:) that a parametric equation matching the given one will suggest itself once an equation for the path has been obtained.
 

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