Which Train Explodes First in the Time Dilation Paradox?

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The discussion centers on a thought experiment involving two trains moving in opposite directions, each equipped with timers set to explode the other train after two minutes. Participants debate the implications of special relativity, particularly the concepts of simultaneity and time dilation, leading to conflicting predictions about which train explodes first. Some argue that the situation is symmetrical, while others assert that the lack of universal simultaneity means both trains will explode simultaneously when viewed from a third reference frame. The conversation highlights the complexities of relativistic effects and the necessity of considering light signal delays in determining the sequence of events. Ultimately, the consensus leans towards both trains exploding due to the simultaneous transmission of detonation signals.
  • #31
bgq said:
Hi, I studied relativity, and I think I am not bad in applying the related equations. However I don't post this to claim a paradox, I just post this to understand what seems to be a paradox to me,

Which equations have you been applying?

Try writing down the (x,t) coordinates in A's frame of three events: trains depart in opposite directions; A's clock reaches 2 minutes and light signal is sent; and A's light signal reaches B. Then apply the Lorentz transformations to find the coordinates of these events in B's frame.

The paradox will disappear.
 
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  • #32
bgq said:
I read the equations, but we can choose the speed of the trains so that the signal - of the speed of light - can travel very fast before the other timer reaches 2 min.

No, you can't. Try to do it - in numbers. Or better, set your equations to find the speed the trains must have in order for it to happen that way. You'll see it's impossible.
Did you try to draw a space-time diagram for each of the 3 observers, with the trains' trajectories, the signals' paths and the clock readings?
 
  • #33
bgq said:
[..] I really can't find any solution to this paradox; I am going to deny all the special theory of relativity because of this. The paradox is very simple,[..]

bgq said:
[..] I don't claim that I fully understand relativity (else why I need to post question). I just try to understand relativity, not just memorize and apply equations. I am until now astonished if this theory is true, how things such as time dilation could happen without any mechanism, is it just faith?! [..]

Hi bqq, I know exactly what you're going through as a number of years ago I experienced the same, and even worse: concerning one paradox I only received erroneous explanations and as a result I struggled to find the right answer myself. In contrast, you immediately received correct answers on the one that you presented here.

SR is not based on a physical model, and thus it doesn't provide a physical mechanism. For example the principle of energy conservation doesn't provide a mechanism either. That is not just faith but experience from experiments (except if for you experience is "just faith").

Your questions have some similarities with discussions that we have in parallel:

- a bomb explosion paradox:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=636191

- understanding physical process of time dilation:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=638749

Cheers,
Harald

PS some links to good introductions:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/
http://www.bartleby.com/173/
 
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  • #34
Bgq, let's try to leave math out of it and work with a logical approach:
Don't think of the other clock as literally slowing down, think of it as going at exactly tue same rate as yours. Imagine that every tick of the clock sends a light signal to you, a blink. When both of you are at rest relative to each other, the blinks occur simultanesously with your clock's seconds. They are in sync, ticking at the same rate of 1 second per second.

Now, when the other train is moving away, the disance increases and now light has considerable distance to travel. In contrast with when both of you were at the same place (the origin), now light takes time to get to you, it has to cover the distance between you. You can't see the blink at the same moment that it blinks as seen from that train, you can't see light at a distance. Light must be right in your eyes for you to see something.

That means that you will see the first blink at 1 second + the time it took for the blink to get to you. If light took half a second to reach your eyes, you will think it blinked late compared to your clock, you will think the other clock slowed down. But it only appears to be slow, from your perspective. Special Relativity is basically a set of equations that take the speed of light in consideration in distant measurements.

Is this helpful?
 
  • #35
altergnostic said:
Bgq, let's try to leave math out of it and work with a logical approach:
Don't think of the other clock as literally slowing down, think of it as going at exactly tue same rate as yours. Imagine that every tick of the clock sends a light signal to you, a blink. When both of you are at rest relative to each other, the blinks occur simultanesously with your clock's seconds. They are in sync, ticking at the same rate of 1 second per second.

Now, when the other train is moving away, the disance increases and now light has considerable distance to travel. In contrast with when both of you were at the same place (the origin), now light takes time to get to you, it has to cover the distance between you. You can't see the blink at the same moment that it blinks as seen from that train, you can't see light at a distance. Light must be right in your eyes for you to see something.

That means that you will see the first blink at 1 second + the time it took for the blink to get to you. If light took half a second to reach your eyes, you will think it blinked late compared to your clock, you will think the other clock slowed down. But it only appears to be slow, from your perspective. Special Relativity is basically a set of equations that take the speed of light in consideration in distant measurements.

Is this helpful?

Thank you very much. This is convincing, but is SR really that simple?
 
  • #36
bgq said:
Thank you very much. This is convincing, but is SR really that simple?
Regretfully not, that is classical Doppler. Classical physics already takes the speed of light in consideration in measurements at a distance. And it is extremely useful to have a good understanding of classical physics before trying to understand SR.

Classical Doppler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect

Relativistic Doppler: http://mathpages.com/rr/s2-04/2-04.htm

As a matter of fact, the first positive determination of the "time dilation" factor was done on that effect.
 
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  • #37
Hi,

Thank you all for your helpful replies.

I did some math, and try to study the whole situation from the point of view of train A. I really found that the both trains will explode (when the light signal reaches B, the signal from B has been already sent), anyway I reach the result the both explodes, but according to my calculations they will not explode simultaneously (B will explode before), but I think this is natural, there is also relativity of simultaneity. I use that the timer sends signal at 2 seconds (not 2 minutes in order to escape from unit conversions) and the speed of the trains relative to each other is 0.6c.

Again thank you all for your replies, they are very helpful, I like this forum, may be I ask other questions later.
 
  • #38
bgq said:
Hi,

Thank you all for your helpful replies.

I did some math, and try to study the whole situation from the point of view of train A. I really found that the both trains will explode (when the light signal reaches B, the signal from B has been already sent), anyway I reach the result the both explodes, but according to my calculations they will not explode simultaneously (B will explode before), but I think this is natural, there is also relativity of simultaneity. I use that the timer sends signal at 2 seconds (not 2 minutes in order to escape from unit conversions) and the speed of the trains relative to each other is 0.6c.

Again thank you all for your replies, they are very helpful, I like this forum, may be I ask other questions later.

That's great!
One observation, though. You said that they don't happen simultaneously, but you have to take care: they don't happen simultaneously as seen from the train A. Remember that from the central point, there is an observed simultaneity. Remember that in SR everything is relative, you can't make absolute statements. Ever. Everything must be considered as the point of view from the frame you are doing measurements.

Good luck with your studies!
 
  • #39
altergnostic said:
Good luck with your studies!

Thank you very much.
 
  • #40
altergnostic said:
Remember that in SR everything is relative, you can't make absolute statements. Ever. Everything must be considered as the point of view from the frame you are doing measurements.
None of these statements are true.

As I pointed out in post #21, the Doppler analysis shows us what each observer actually sees, observes and measures and does not depend on which frame you use to do the analysis and, in fact, doesn't even require a frame to do the analysis. Different frames don't change what observers see, observe or measure. All they do is change how the calculations are made to determine what they see, observe and measure but the end result is the same. I have pointed this out multiple times in this thread. It's one of the issues the OP needs to understand because he has been expressing the idea that different frames not only change what observers see, they also change the outcome of what happens.
 
  • #41
ghwellsjr said:
None of these statements are true.

As I pointed out in post #21, the Doppler analysis shows us what each observer actually sees, observes and measures and does not depend on which frame you use to do the analysis and, in fact, doesn't even require a frame to do the analysis. Different frames don't change what observers see, observe or measure. All they do is change how the calculations are made to determine what they see, observe and measure but the end result is the same. I have pointed this out multiple times in this thread. It's one of the issues the OP needs to understand because he has been expressing the idea that different frames not only change what observers see, they also change the outcome of what happens.

I think i may have been unclear with what i meant say. I wasn't implying that different frames will reach different conclusions, only that whenever you do relativity, you are in only one frame and there's no absolute frame. Two observers in different frames may disagree on direct observarions, such as the time some event takes place compared to his own watch, but by applying sr equations both will reach agreeing conclusions.

I was only trying to point out that statements such as "simultaneous" need to be reached from only one reference frame of choice, from where you make your measurements. The final results will be in agreement with any other frame you choose to do your calcularions from.
 
  • #42
altergnostic said:
Two observers in different frames may disagree on direct observarions, such as the time some event takes place compared to his own watch, but by applying sr equations both will reach agreeing conclusions.
Actually, no, and that was ghwellsjr's point. There will never be disagreement between frames on direct observations. A direct observation is, e.g. time on 'A's watch when they detect event X.
altergnostic said:
I was only trying to point out that statements such as "simultaneous" need to be reached from only one reference frame of choice, from where you make your measurements. The final results will be in agreement with any other frame you choose to do your calcularions from.

Frames will disagree on simultaneity precisely because it is not an observation; it is a convention or calculation. An observation is e.g. light from X and Y reach A at the same time. 'A' might interpret this as X and Y are simultaneous. B might have different interpretation. Neither will disagree on the observable: that light form X and Y reach A at the same time.
 
  • #43
PAllen said:
Actually, no, and that was ghwellsjr's point. There will never be disagreement between frames on direct observations.

Each of the observers in the train "observes" that the clock of the other is slower. Observer in train A observes that clock of B is slower than clock of A, but observer in train B observes that clock of A is slower than that of B. There is a clear disagreement about what each observes.
 
  • #44
bgq said:
Each of the observers in the train "observes" that the clock of the other is slower. Observer in train A observes that clock of B is slower than clock of A, but observer in train B observes that clock of A is slower than that of B. There is a clear disagreement about what each observes.
They don't really observe but calculate that. With "direct observations", we mean that everyone agrees about what everyone observes on his/her clock when a signal arrives at the location where that clock is. Those are called "events" in SR jargon:
PAllen said:
A direct observation is, e.g. time on 'A's watch when they detect event X.
 
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  • #45
harrylin said:
They don't really observe but calculate that.

According to my understanding of physics and sciences, we do calculations to know what could be observed even if observations are not exist. If calculations do not reveal what could be observed (or at least what being true), then there is no point to do any calculations, and all formulas of physics has nothing to do with the real world!
 
  • #46
bgq said:
According to my understanding of physics and sciences, we do calculations to know what could be observed even if observations are not exist. If calculations do not reveal what could be observed (or at least what being true), then there is no point to do any calculations, and all formulas of physics has nothing to do with the real world!
Right. Once more: everyone agrees about what everyone observes on his/her clock when a signal arrives at the location where that clock is. Also everyone can calculate what someone else would calculate, based on certain assumptions. That is the point of doing calculations. However, they may use contrary assumptions. In particular, the calculated rate of a moving clock depends on one's assumption about simultaneity (you know this if you know how to derive the time dilation factor, as shown in good textbooks; but if you don't know, ask!).

To give a more graphic example: a laser hits an analogue watch and melts it so that the dial is stuck in place. Everyone must agree what time that watch indicated when it was melted by the laser pulse. What people do not have to agree on, was what time it "really" was when that happened.

BTW, also relativity of simultaneity is explained in the two references that I provided at your request (#30, #33).
 
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  • #47
PAllen said:
Actually, no, and that was ghwellsjr's point. There will never be disagreement between frames on direct observations. A direct observation is, e.g. time on 'A's watch when they detect event X.


Frames will disagree on simultaneity precisely because it is not an observation; it is a convention or calculation. An observation is e.g. light from X and Y reach A at the same time. 'A' might interpret this as X and Y are simultaneous. B might have different interpretation. Neither will disagree on the observable: that light form X and Y reach A at the same time.

I meant to say that ANY two frames may disagree on observatios, not the two specified in this particular problem. I was generalising, i guess this wasnt clear. If you have three frames with different relative velocites to each other they will not agree on the time of their observatios on events occurring on all three of them. If light from a source takes longer to reach an observer than another, they will not agree. They will agree on observations when the situation is symmetrical.
 
  • #48
bgq said:
Each of the observers in the train "observes" that the clock of the other is slower. Observer in train A observes that clock of B is slower than clock of A, but observer in train B observes that clock of A is slower than that of B. There is a clear disagreement about what each observes.

That's a calculation, not an observation. The observation is "light signal at t seconds on my watch" and from there you calculate the difference between clocks. Remember, observations are local events, light has to reach you, be inside your own frame, you can't see light at a distance. Everything that happens on another frame at a considerable distance and/or relative velocity has to be calculated.
 
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  • #49
harrylin said:
They don't really observe but calculate that. With "direct observations", we mean that everyone agrees about what everyone observes on his/her clock when a signal arrives at the location where that clock is. Those are called "events" in SR jargon:
I think this could be misleading. "Events" in SR jargon have a wider meaning than merely when something significant "happens" in a scenario. The term "event" refers specifically to the four coordinates of a location in space at a particular time as defined by a particular frame, whether or not anything is present at that location and at that time and the value of those four coordinates are different in different reference frames. So while all frames will agree on what any observer sees on their own clocks and the signals they receive from other clocks, they will not agree on the values of the coordinates that they assign to those events. It's these four coordinates that we use the Lorentz Transformation process to see how any arbitrary event in one inertial frame takes on different values in a different inertial frame moving with respect to the first one. The values of the coordinates of these events provide no relation to what, if anything, is actually "happening" at those events.
 
  • #50
bgq said:
Each of the observers in the train "observes" that the clock of the other is slower. Observer in train A observes that clock of B is slower than clock of A, but observer in train B observes that clock of A is slower than that of B. There is a clear disagreement about what each observes.
There is never any disagreement about what any observers actually see, measure or observe.
bgq said:
According to my understanding of physics and sciences, we do calculations to know what could be observed even if observations are not exist. If calculations do not reveal what could be observed (or at least what being true), then there is no point to do any calculations, and all formulas of physics has nothing to do with the real world!
This quote seems at odds with the first quote. First you said there is disagreement about observations and now you say that observations should reflect the truth about what is going on in the real world. What you need to understand is that there are different ways to calculate what observers will see, measure and observe but those calculations can have completely different numbers until you get to the final result. You also need to understand that time dilation is not one of those things that observers can see. Don't confuse the observed slowing down of a moving clock with time dilation.

Consider a new situation where two observers are approaching each other from a great distance apart. They will each observe the other ones clock as running faster than their own and then after they pass each other, they will each observe the other ones clock running slower than their own. These are just normal relativistic Doppler effects, correct?

Yet, if you apply the rules of Special Relativity and select any arbitrary inertial frame to analyze the situation, the time dilation of each clock remains the same while they approach, pass, and depart from each other. Do you understand that? The time dilation doesn't change while they each see the others clock first running faster than their own and then slower.

So, for example, if we analyze this new situation from a frame in which both observers are traveling at the same speed toward each other, we will calculate that they both have the same time dilation, even though they both first see each others clock running faster than their own and then running slower than their own after they pass.

Then if we use a second frame in which one of the observers is at rest, we will calculate that his clock has no time dilation while the other clock has an even greater time dilation than in the first frame and yet they still both see each others clock running faster then slower.

And if we use a third frame in which the other observer is at rest, we will exchange all the calculations between the two observers from the second frame.

And we can pick other frames in which both travelers are moving but at different speeds and then we will calculate they each have different time dilations.

So in each of these different frames, the time dilations of the two observers is a constant during the scenario for each observer and yet they still both see the other ones clock first running faster and then running slower than their own by exactly the same ratios.

The time dilation is a calculation based on the speed of the clock in the arbitrarily selected frame and is not something that anyone can ever see or measure or observe.
 
  • #51
ghwellsjr said:
I think this could be misleading. "Events" in SR jargon have a wider meaning than merely when something significant "happens" in a scenario. [..]whether or not anything is present at that location and at that time [..]
Such extreme jargon would loose all connection to the true meaning of the word.
IMHO the following summarizes "event" rather well:
http:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_(relativity)
 
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  • #52
altergnostic said:
I meant to say that ANY two frames may disagree on observatios, not the two specified in this particular problem. I was generalising, i guess this wasnt clear. If you have three frames with different relative velocites to each other they will not agree on the time of their observatios on events occurring on all three of them.
I'm not sure you have a clear understanding here, but even if you do, you are not expressing it clearly. Any two frames will always agree on "observations" if by that we mean what observers will observe. What they will not agree on is their assignment of the coordinate values of events. There is clear terminology to express what you seem to be saying, why not use it? Instead of saying:
If you have three frames with different relative velocites to each other they will not agree on the time of their observatios on events occurring on all three of them.
Why not say:
If you have three frames with different relative velocities to each other they will not agree on the coordinate times of the events occurring on all three of them.

altergnostic said:
If light from a source takes longer to reach an observer than another, they will not agree. They will agree on observations when the situation is symmetrical.
It's statement like this that makes me wonder if you really understand SR. What is it that you are saying they don't agree on or do agree on? Observations? If you are saying that two distant observers will see the same thing at the same time if they are the same distance from the source of the observation, then that really begs the question. How do you know that they are the same distance and that their observations are taken at the same time? That's an issue that requires a frame to settle, not observations.

Or are you saying that they will agree on the coordinate location and time of a remote event? Well this will be true if they are both using the same frame and they are both discussing the same event.

Look, in this scenario, when we are talking about the symmetry of observations, we are not talking about either of these things. We are saying that each observer sees the other ones clock ticking slower than his own by the same ratio and this is independent of any frame and it is not an observation of time dilation. Note that the observers are not observing the same events, the first observer is observing the second observer's clock in relation to his own and the second observer is observing the first observer's clock in relation to his own.
altergnostic said:
bgq said:
Each of the observers in the train "observes" that the clock of the other is slower. Observer in train A observes that clock of B is slower than clock of A, but observer in train B observes that clock of A is slower than that of B. There is a clear disagreement about what each observes.
That's a calculation, not an observation. The observation is "light signal at t seconds on my watch" and from there you calculate the difference between clocks. Remember, observations are local events, light has to reach you, be inside your own frame, you can't see light at a distance. Everything that happens on another frame at a considerable distance and/or relative velocity has to be calculated.
Again, even if you understand SR correctly, you're not expressing it correctly. You seem to be incorporating more than one frame to explain what is happening. Stick with one frame at a time. And I'm not sure when you say that bgq's statement is regarding a calculation rather than an observation is correct. His statement about their observations is correct. His statement that there is disagreement is not correct. I don't know what you mean by:
The observation is "light signal at t seconds on my watch" and from there you calculate the difference between clocks.
What calculation in the difference between the clocks are you talking about?

You are correct that observations are local events because light has to reach you, but why do you say "inside your own frame" and why do you say "on another frame at a considerable distance"? In SR, all inertial frames cover all distances. It's not like I'm in one frame local in extent to me and the other observer, who is at a considerable distance away from me (whether or not he is moving with respect to me) is in another frame local in extent to him. If you want to consider my rest frame, then it also includes that distant other observer. Or if you want to consider his rest frame, then it also includes me. In my rest frame, my clock ticks at the same rate as the coordinate time and his moving clock ticks at a slower rate. In his rest frame, his clock ticks at the same rate as the coordinate time and my clock ticks slower. In a frame in which we are both traveling at the same speed, both our clocks tick slower, by the same amount, than the coordinate time.
 
  • #53
harrylin said:
Such extreme jargon would loose all connection to the true meaning of the word.
IMHO the following summarizes "event" rather well:
http:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_(relativity)
There are multiple "true meanings" of the word "event". The wikipedia article is pointing out that "a glass breaking on the floor" is not the idealized event that we use in SR which does not have an extent either in space or in time. To call the idealized meaning of the word "event" when applied to the Lorentz Transformation process as extreme jargon is to discredit an understanding what I was trying to point out. "Event" has a very specific meaning in Special Relativity that many people are confused about specifically because they want to link it to a happening such as a concert which is also called an event.
 
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  • #54
ghwellsjr said:
[..] To call the idealized meaning of the word "event" when applied to the Lorentz Transformation process as extreme jargon is to discredit an understanding what I was trying to point out.[..]
I find the idealized meaning of the word "event" as currently described in Wikipedia acceptable jargon, in contrast with your description which I called extreme jargon. Thus we don't appreciate each other's explanations of this; and that is no problem, as everyone can verify the references and make up his/her own mind while taking the best of both. :smile:
 
  • #55
ghwellsjr said:
Consider a new situation where two observers are approaching each other from a great distance apart. They will each observe the other ones clock as running faster than their own
.
Actually, I don't understand why each observes the other clock faster, the time dilation formula does say nothing about the direction of motion, can you clarify this to me?
 
  • #56
harrylin said:
I find the idealized meaning of the word "event" as currently described in Wikipedia acceptable jargon, in contrast with your description which I called extreme jargon. Thus we don't appreciate each other's explanations of this; and that is no problem, as everyone can verify the references and make up his/her own mind while taking the best of both. :smile:
Then are you saying that if I specify a set of coordinates in a particular frame, say at t=3 seconds, x=4, y=5 and z=6 (all in light-seconds) but there is nothing but empty space at that location at that time, then it is not an event?
 
  • #57
bgq said:
Actually, I don't understand why each observes the other clock faster, the time dilation formula does say nothing about the direction of motion, can you clarify this to me?
I've been trying to say that you can't observe time dilation, it's a calculation based on the speed in an arbitrarily selected inertial frame of reference. If you could observe it, it would be a bunch of different values depending on which frame someone chooses. An observation is what you actually see with your eyes or with an instrument like a telescope or a radio or a television. These all depend on the changing light travel time which makes things appear faster when approaching or slower when receding. Doppler is what you observe, time dilation is what you calculate.
 
  • #58
ghwellsjr said:
I've been trying to say that you can't observe time dilation, it's a calculation based on the speed in an arbitrarily selected inertial frame of reference. If you could observe it, it would be a bunch of different values depending on which frame someone chooses. An observation is what you actually see with your eyes or with an instrument like a telescope or a radio or a television. These all depend on the changing light travel time which makes things appear faster when approaching or slower when receding. Doppler is what you observe, time dilation is what you calculate.

Well, I think I had a problem with the exact meaning of "observation" which lead to some confusion; anyway I think I now get it.
Thanks.
 
  • #59
I'll add what I hope is the simplest possible separation of measurement versus assignment (of coordinates or labels).

Bob and Alice, each with a wristwatch, have relative motion and pass each other. We don't care about anything except the event they go right past each other.

There are two measurements here: Bob reads his watch at passage and see 2 PM. Alice read her watch and sees 3 PM. Each can see the other's watch, so Bob agrees that Alice measured 3 PM. Alice agrees that Bob measured 2 PM. Everyone in universe who can gain information about these measurements agrees on the result of each of these two measurements.

What differs by frame or observer is the time assigned to the passing event. Bob assigns 2 PM to the event. Alice assigns 3 PM to the event. Other observers will assign different time to this same 'passing' event.
 
  • #60
PAllen said:
I'll add what I hope is the simplest possible separation of measurement versus assignment (of coordinates or labels).

Bob and Alice, each with a wristwatch, have relative motion and pass each other. We don't care about anything except the event they go right past each other.

There are two measurements here: Bob reads his watch at passage and see 2 PM. Alice read her watch and sees 3 PM. Each can see the other's watch, so Bob agrees that Alice measured 3 PM. Alice agrees that Bob measured 2 PM. Everyone in universe who can gain information about these measurements agrees on the result of each of these two measurements.

What differs by frame or observer is the time assigned to the passing event. Bob assigns 2 PM to the event. Alice assigns 3 PM to the event. Other observers will assign different time to this same 'passing' event.

OK, that's clear.
 

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