Who do you plan to vote for: Obama or McCain?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the participants' preferences for the 2008 U.S. presidential election candidates, Barack Obama and John McCain. Participants express their opinions on the candidates' policies, character, and potential impacts on various issues, including the economy, foreign policy, and social issues.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Political reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express a preference for Obama, citing concerns about McCain's policies and character, while others prefer McCain for his perceived clarity on issues.
  • There are claims that Obama may harm the economy through overspending and that his healthcare plans could be funded through redistributing spending.
  • Some participants argue that both candidates are too similar and not sufficiently progressive, with preferences for third-party candidates like Nader or Ron Paul.
  • Concerns are raised about McCain's perceived flip-flopping on social issues and his alignment with the Religious Right.
  • Participants discuss energy policy, with some arguing that drilling and nuclear power are necessary, while others challenge the accuracy of claims about Obama's stance on these issues.
  • There are disagreements about the classification of both candidates as "socialist" or "center-right," with some participants asserting that neither fits these labels.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach consensus, with multiple competing views on the candidates' policies, character, and the implications of their potential presidencies. Disagreements persist regarding the candidates' positions on key issues and their overall political alignment.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about candidates' policies and positions are contested, and there are references to external sources that may not be universally accepted. The discussion reflects a range of opinions influenced by personal values and political beliefs.

Obama or McCain?

  • Obama

    Votes: 21 38.2%
  • McCain

    Votes: 14 25.5%
  • Other(please specify)

    Votes: 6 10.9%
  • I am not/can not vote

    Votes: 14 25.5%

  • Total voters
    55
thewhills
Messages
95
Reaction score
0
and Why of course?
Also your pick for VP of your candidate?

I don't like either really, I think Obama is going hurt the economy by overspending with random programs and taking needed tax cuts away from business who themselves are struggling. Not to mention his want to delay the Orion program is unheard of. but I agree with a lot of his views.

McCain on the other hand is worse. The Iraq war is pointless, even Iraq wants us out. That is a HUGE waste of money. I like the fact that he is liberal republican, but he is still too conservative

I still pick Obama and for his VP...this is tough...Wesley Clark, incredibly qualified. His military experience outdoes McCain. This guy graduated top of his class at West Point and then went to Oxford to study PPE. He is internationally respected and has many rewards.

I would like to write in Al Gore, but I doubt that will happen.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
If I vote it will be for Obama. Mainly because I can't stand McCain.
 
I don't think I can vote for Obama, him being as skinny as he is.
 
H. Clinton.
 
McCain; Barack Obama is too socialist for me.
 
Neither candidate could be classified as "socialist." Plus, McSame actually would implement a lot of the failed spending programs that Bush wants to continue, and corporate welfare, which is three times the amount of social welfare.

http://www.conservativenannystate.org/

Both Obama and McCain are center right, but too far right for me. I prefer Nader, but if I had to choose between those two it would be Obama.
 
OrbitalPower said:
Neither candidate could be classified as "socialist." Plus, McSame actually would implement a lot of the failed spending programs that Bush wants to continue, and corporate welfare, which is three times the amount of social welfare.

http://www.conservativenannystate.org/

I definitely wouldn't classify Obama as "center-right," but I fully agree that McCain will likely continue many of the same programs as President Bush, unless he really adheres to his "crackdown on pork" theme. It just seems Barack Obama will spend even more. I believe GWB outspent every previous President on alternative energy for example, which Barack Obama wants to increase spending on, I do not think his universal health insurance program will be cheap, etc...for me, it's just choosing between two turds.

The Republican party unfortunately was hijacked by big-spending neocons.

Both Obama and McCain are center right, but too far right for me. I prefer Nader, but if I had to choose between those two it would be Obama.

See now to me, they're both too far to the Left! :D
 
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I'm not in the states but I much rather see Obama than McCain. Obama seems more pro-science to me and I really don't want to see another war on science by a president again.

But if I could pick anyone, it would be Ron Paul. I'm just reading his book now, "The Revolution". He's so different from any other politician out there. Go Ron Paul!
 
Obama's and Hillary's plans have been estimated by economists like Gruber to be paid for by things such as redistributing spending in the health care system and cutting back on wasteful spending, with perhaps an increase on a certain negative tax.

Plus, these plans, esp. Obama's, simply require people to be insured. They are not overly expensive, and could easily be paid for.

The republican party has always engaged in big spending, such as Reagan, a conservative hero, who tripled the deficit, and was engaged in illegal operations such as selling arms to the Iranians and giving it to the contras.

Obama's right-wing policies include not wanting to end the death penalty, encouraging failed trade policies, back tracking on the environment, increased security measures, not calling for a complete withdrawl of all troops and military bases, and so on.

The "left" supports egalitarianism and equality, systems such as anarchism, democracy, utilitarianism, and socialism, whereas the right is reactionary and supports traditional, hierarchical systems such as capitlaism and fascism.

I don't know any political science definition that contradicts this.
 
  • #10
McCain, because I know where he stands, for the most part. More than I know where Obama stands. Obama says a lot that doesn't really define a position on anything. Too vague a candidate for me.
 
  • #11
drankin said:
McCain, because I know where he stands, for the most part.

On his head? He's flip flopped on every issue he ever stood for, to the point of voting against his own bills.
 
  • #12
drankin said:
McCain, because I know where he stands, for the most part.
Time to play:Where, oh where, does McCain stand?ROUND I: SOCIAL ISSUES

Q1. Where does McCain stand on overturning Roe v. Wade?

<<For his 2000 campaign, he was against it. Now he is for it. Where will he be tomorrow? >>Q2. Where does McCain stand on the influence of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and the Religious Right?

<<In his 2000 campaign, he called them "agents of intolerance". Now he says they are not and specifically sought Falwell's endorsement, spoke at his school, and hired his debate coach. McCain also sought endorsements from pastors John Hagee and Rod Parsley during the primaries. After he won the Primary, however, he denounced their bigoted messages and rejected their endorsements. Where will he be tomorrow? >>Q3. Where does McCain stand on teaching Intelligent Design in schools?

<<For his 2000 campaign, he was against it, opposing GWB's stance. Now he is for it. Where will he be tomorrow? >>Q4. Where does McCain stand on the issue of the Confederate flag (and related race issues)?

<<During the 2000 primaries, he supported SC flying the Confederate flag, calling it a "symbol of heritage". A couple years later, he said that it "should be taken down". Over a similar time frame, he opposed a MLK holiday before he supported it. But on the issue of Affirmative Action (AA), he switched the other way. In 2000, he supported AA and rejected ballot measures to ban it. Today, he supports the Arizona ballot measure to ban AA. Where will he be tomorrow? >>Note: These are mostly well-known or easily Googled. If required, specific references will be provided upon request.

Stay tuned for...

ROUND II: CAMPAIGNING
ROUND III: ECONOMY
ROUND IV: FOREIGN POLICY
ROUND V: ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT
 
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  • #13
I agree regarding McCain on the social issues, but I think he would be better for the economy and foreign policy than Obama. Like I said though, both are turds to me.
 
  • #14
I can easily come up with websites that document and discuss Obama's multitude of flip-flops.
 
  • #15
I'm voting for McCain for the simple reason that he makes more sense.

Energy is the real problem. The economy will recover when our energy problems decline. The wars will take care of themselves, it's just a matter of time. It's energy that is our problem.

Obama opposes drilling and nuclear power. Which is simply stupid. While neither may be the best long-term goal, we need something to get us there.

When we have giant pools of oil, and shale in the Rocky Mountains (Which is estimated to be between 700 billions and 3 trillion barrels, more than in Saudia Arabia), it is just foolish not to drill. I'll vote for the candidate that will drill for oil, and will use nuclear power.

Oh yea, and universal healthcare is retarded. I'm not paying for your kid's braces.
 
  • #16
Riogho said:
The wars will take care of themselves, it's just a matter of time.
lol

Obama opposes drilling and nuclear power. Which is simply stupid.

It's also simply not true.
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN2034620420080620?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews

When we have giant pools of oil, and shale in the Rocky Mountains (Which is estimated to be between 700 billions and 3 trillion barrels, more than in Saudia Arabia), it is just foolish not to drill. I'll vote for the candidate that will drill for oil, and will use nuclear power.

Do you have a source for those amounts of oil?

Secondly, do you have any idea whether that will even be beneficial in the short term? It takes a LONG time to build a nuclear plant and an oil rig. Moreover, oil companies already have a lot of land they can tap into but choose not to.

Oh yea, and universal healthcare is retarded. I'm not paying for your kid's braces.

Okay. I won't pay for your police force, then. Or fire department. Or roads. Or military.
 
  • #17
WarPhalange said:
Secondly, do you have any idea whether that will even be beneficial in the short term? It takes a LONG time to build a nuclear plant and an oil rig. Moreover, oil companies already have a lot of land they can tap into but choose not to.

It could be; oil prices are partially determined by oil futures. If the market thinks more drilling will start up, the price should drop instantly.

Okay. I won't pay for your police force, then. Or fire department. Or roads. Or military.

The taxpayer is not supposed to have to pay for people's healthcare. Infrastructure, military, police, firefighter, etc...are things that are always paid for via taxes and handled by the government. We couldn't have privately-controlled militaries, and having different police companies or firefighter companies just probably wouldn't be a good idea. One maybe could try having firefighting companies that would be paid by taxpayer dollars to handle fires and chemical spills and so forth, and one could perhaps try private police companies that compete for cities/towns to pay them to patrol and do policing, but in general, it probably simplifies things to have those entites under government (local government).

The market is supposed to handle healthcare. The problem is that the healthcare industry is so heavily regulated that it pretty much can't be considered a free-market system. But the United States government is the last entity I want controlling the healthcare system.

Remember, economic freedom is a necessary component for political freedom and social freedom and healthcare is 16% of the U.S. GDP. While Barack Obama's plan isn't to outright nationalize healthcare at the moment, I cannot see how it would not end up being nationalized in the future. There is no way he will be able to provide good, quality healthcare to all Americans. Healthcare has to be rationed, either by prices (market), or by bureaucratic fiat (government). Right now it's kind of a combination of both.

I do not want government eventually taking control of 16% of the economy. Saying that we can provide "universal healthcare" is like claiming that we can give everyone beachfront housing.
 
  • #18
Economic freedom has not been a "necessary component" for political freedom. The Nazis privatized many industries and opened up trade, there was not an increase in political freedom. Economic freedom is now booming in China, and there is not a vast amount of "freedom" there either.

Shifting power into the hands of private tyrannies is not freedom, although this is another matter.

As for heatlh care, the US already spends more per capita than most other industrialized nations. The profits, however, are indeed privatized, making the industry more geared towards selling drugs and other profiteering shenanigans than prevention. The US could save a lot on prevention alone.

The "market solution" has already failed and is disaterous, so indeed I think it is time for someone else to come up with a new solution, even if it is a weird collusion between the insurance industry and the government (not true UHC).
 
  • #19
WheelsRCool said:
We couldn't have privately-controlled militaries, and having different police companies or firefighter companies just probably wouldn't be a good idea. One maybe could try having firefighting companies that would be paid by taxpayer dollars to handle fires and chemical spills and so forth, and one could perhaps try private police companies that compete for cities/towns to pay them to patrol and do policing, but in general, it probably simplifies things to have those entites under government (local government).

I suggest you go learn some history. We already had a privatized firefighter system, and it completely flopped. The firefighters would fight over who gets to put out the fire while the building burns.

We now have a privatized healthcare system which is sucking pretty bad. Trying to make it government controlled could be beneficial. At least if we try it we'll know for sure which was better.

The market is supposed to handle healthcare.

What is this "supposed to" business? Where does it say that?
 
  • #20
WheelsRCool said:
I do not want government eventually taking control of 16% of the economy. Saying that we can provide "universal healthcare" is like claiming that we can give everyone beachfront housing.

More "voodoo economics." The government would not be controlling 17% of the economy, first of all, and they really would be no more involved in the health care system than they are now with this corporate system we have in place (for health care, or any other system).

Hillary's plan, which would actually be more expensive to implement than Obama's, was estimated to cost about 110 billion to implement.

According to health care econonomists like Jonathan Gruber at MIT, it could be paid for by rolling back Bush tax cuts on the wealthy, and the savings generated by improvements in chronic disease management, prevention, and electric record keeping. This would generate about half the income for the "UHC" plans. This is not a "tax increase" because without congressional action the cuts are set to expire in January, 2011.

Obama, since he requires only children to be covered, would likely be even cheaper to implement, as only the poorer children's families would be getting the tax credits back.

Another thing interesting about Hillary's plan was that she wanted to cap primiums between 5 to 10%.

Right now, the average cost of a family policy is about 10% of the median family income of about 60,000, while some families pay as much as 16% of their median income. But, Hillary said she might require insurers to spend a heavy proportion of primium dollars on health care as opposed to overhead and profit.

http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml

This is another inventive solution to the health care plan. These type of plans were deemed "realistic" by economists like Jonathan Gruber, who only disagreed with HIllary on on naot varying the premium cap according to income.

It's important to note that governors like Schwarzenegger etc. have already talked about doing things like this, and Massachusetts already has a mandated insurance plan and they were able to manage it.

You could also up the tax on cigarettes to help pay for an Obama plan, which, again, would be cheaper.

So which health economist says that it is "unrealistic" and it amounts to the US controlling 16% of the economy by requiring children to be covered?
 
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  • #21
Riogho said:
Oh yea, and universal healthcare is retarded. I'm not paying for your kid's braces.

Would you rather pay for a kid's ear infection medication or ER expenses when the kid's infection gets much worse?

Because right now you're paying for the latter. People don't have money for doctor visits, so they don't go. Then it gets worse, so they go to the ER. It would be cheaper to pay for prevention than for fixing problems.
 
  • #22
seycyrus said:
I can easily come up with websites that document and discuss Obama's multitude of flip-flops.
Feel free.
 
  • #23
WheelsRCool said:
It could be; oil prices are partially determined by oil futures. If the market thinks more drilling will start up, the price should drop instantly.
Is there a single serious study or a single reputed economist that calculates the effect of such announcements on the price of oil? Our own DoE says there is not going to be any noticeable change in price for several years.
 
  • #24
Not to worry, guys - Obama supports drilling now!
Obama's proposal includes two reversals of positions he has taken in the past: He had fought the idea of limited new offshore drilling and was against tapping the nation's emergency oil stockpile to relieve gasoline prices that have stubbornly hovered around $4 a gallon.

On Monday, Obama pushed for drawing from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve and reiterated an offshore drilling position he first revealed Friday: He could live with it if it is done in an environmentally sound way and as part of comprehensive, bipartisan legislation on energy.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-08-04-obama-oil_N.htm

That's as of Friday, though. Where will he be tomorrow? Stay tuned...
 
  • #25
Gokul43201 said:
If required, specific references will be provided upon request.
Yes, I would like to see them.
 
  • #26
seycyrus said:
I can easily come up with websites that document and discuss Obama's multitude of flip-flops.
That's more difficult with Obama since he doesn't take specific positions on a lot of issues. I guess you could say more wavers than flip-flops. For example:
Rhigho said:
Obama opposes drilling and nuclear power.
WarPhalange said:
Reuters said:
During a meeting with U.S. governors, Obama noted that nuclear power does not emit greenhouse gases and therefore the United States should consider investing research dollars into whether nuclear waste can be stored safely for its reuse.

But he said, "I don't think that nuclear power is a panacea."
It is interesting they don't quote him on his actual position, but the paraphrase just says we should 'consider' it. So really, he's taken no position at all there.

Here he says "I don't think we should take nuclear power off the table, but...". Not exactly a ringing endorsement. http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2008/01/barack-obama-on-nuclear-energy.html

The part about Obama being against offshore drilling was true before last Friday.
 
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  • #27
Why do you want candidates to have firm opinions?

I think they should have dynamic opinions because of the non-static environment+factors.

Personally, I prefer Obama because he is/looks/(speaks like) young.
 
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  • #28
There's a dynamic opinion and then there is flip flopping and then there is just not having an opinion, which is not desirable either.

A candidate never changing his mind is stupid. When you know a guy who thinks the same thing on Wednesday that he did on Monday, regardless of what happened on Tuesday, you call him a stubborn idiot. But if it's a politician, he's suddenly a good leader?

Flip flopping is when a candidate held a firm position on a subject for a while and suddenly switches in order to get more votes. You don't see flip flopping during the "off season", when people aren't campaigning. If they change their mind, it's either because they really believe it or someone is lining their pockets.

Not having an opinion is what Obama is in danger of being portrayed as. He is kind of vague and it seems like he hasn't thought much through. On the other hand, he is fairly new, so it could just be a matter of him not having enough experience, which is another flaw of his. McCain is a seasoned politician, so he shouldn't be vague on anything at this point.
 
  • #29
Economic freedom has not been a "necessary component" for political freedom. The Nazis privatized many industries and opened up trade, there was not an increase in political freedom. Economic freedom is now booming in China, and there is not a vast amount of "freedom" there either.

Privatization alone does not equate to a free society when the government regulates prices, wages, and production quotas, as the Nazis did.

Monopolies and oligopolies took over the various industries. Economic freedom, political freedom, social freedom, all require that the government, for the most part, keep its hands out of the economy and stick to its job of national defense, enforcing contracts and the law, etc...regulation is needed here and there, but for the most part, government should stay out of the economy.

Remember, for an economy to be truly a free-market and capitalist, the rationing of resources must be done by the natural fluctuations of the price system.

Shifting power into the hands of private tyrannies is not freedom, although this is another matter.

Neither is shifting it into the hands of a government tyranny, only the difference with the government is, there is nothing you can do to stop them. With a company, you can stop buying their products, and if you don't like your employer, the worst they can do is stop paying you. That's a heck of a lot more lenient compared to a bureaucrat with the force of the government backing them up.

And "private tyrannies" do not form in free markets. Go read about all the "big businesses" such as store chains, supermarket chains, etc...that were huge in the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s. Most of them are either gone or much smaller than they used to be, because markets change, companies rise and fall. One can only create a monopoly, for the most part, through government regulation.

You look at all the industries with monopolies or near monopolies and they are highly regulated, such as farming, airlines, pharmaceuticals, health insurance, etc...

This isn't always the case, sometimes a private monopoly forms anyhow, and if that is the case, occasionally you must have government intervene and force this private monopoly not to gouge prices. It depends. Sometimes one must choose between a private monopoly or a public monopoly. Both are bureaucracy, both become very corrupt.

As for heatlh care, the US already spends more per capita than most other industrialized nations. The profits, however, are indeed privatized, making the industry more geared towards selling drugs and other profiteering shenanigans than prevention. The US could save a lot on prevention alone.

You are correct, the U.S. system spends about twice as much per capita on healthcare I believe. But the drug industry, the health insurance industry, etc...are all dominated by a few very large, very powerful companies because those industries are so heavily regulated.

The "market solution" has already failed and is disaterous,

No it didn't. It worked pretty fine until the government started getting more and more involved in healthcare. Remember, around 45% of current healthcare in the U.S. comes from Medicare and Medicaid. The other 55% is privately-controlled, but not really a free-market.

so indeed I think it is time for someone else to come up with a new solution, even if it is a weird collusion between the insurance industry and the government (not true UHC).

They can try, and I believe they will fail.

I suggest you go learn some history. We already had a privatized firefighter system, and it completely flopped. The firefighters would fight over who gets to put out the fire while the building burns.

Exactly; that's why I said "one could maybe try" having privatization for things like firefighters, but it likely would be a lot simpler for the government to control it, and as you have stated, that was proven correct (I am thinking "Gangs of New York").

Nothing in economics is absolute; some things, the government is better at. But healthcare, in my opinion, is not one of them.

We now have a privatized healthcare system which is sucking pretty bad.

It is privatized, but it is not really a free-market because of the heavy regulation. I'm not advocating no regulation or oversight, but too much regulation hampers any industry. It isn't as if we have a free-market healthcare system that for some reason isn't working right.

The aspects of healthcare that are subject to the free-market, such as laser eye surgery, are decreasing in price while increasing in quality. Health insurance, drugs, etc...are not.

Imagine what the computer industry would look like if it was as regulated as the healthcare industry. We'd still be using vacuum tube computers most likely.

Trying to make it government controlled could be beneficial. At least if we try it we'll know for sure which was better.

I do not think it would be; but on another aspect, what if it wasn't? What do we do then? You really think the government will give up 16% control of the economy. They aren't joking when they said that there are two things infinite: the universe and a government agency/program.

I would say we know which are better simply by looking at the healthcare systems of foreign countries, or Canada, or Massachusettes even. Far more people then expected ended up signing up for that universal healthcare plan (Massachusettes), thus overloading it and driving up costs:

http://www.boston.com/business/heal...urers_businesses_seek_to_limit_costs_in_mass/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/05doctors.html

There is only a limited number of doctors. Canada has experienced a shortfall of doctors and nurses as of late because of the strain on the system there.

One is supposed to be able to pay for healthcare with their own money or buy health insurance, but buying health insurance is nothing like buying car insurance or homeowner's insurance.

Remember also, California, the 7th largest economy in the world, wanted to implement a universal healthcare program, but axed it, concluding that it would bankrupt the state. If California cannot do it, how would it be done for the entire United States of America?

More "voodoo economics." The government would not be controlling 17% of the economy, first of all, and they really would be no more involved in the health care system than they are now with this corporate system we have in place (for health care, or any other system).

If we eventually moved to a full nationalized healthcare system, yes they would. And if they aren't going to be anymore involved under Obama's plan than now, than how would the system be any different? Much of the system now rations in much the same way as a government would, accept that it uses corporate bureaucracies, rather than a government bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is bureaucracy, except in a free-market, corporate bureaucracies are subject to market forces, which they are not right now.

According to health care econonomists like Jonathan Gruber at MIT, it could be paid for by rolling back Bush tax cuts on the wealthy, and the savings generated by improvements in chronic disease management, prevention, and electric record keeping. This would generate about half the income for the "UHC" plans. This is not a "tax increase" because without congressional action the cuts are set to expire in January, 2011.

From my understanding, Bush did not cut taxes solely for the wealthy.

The tax rates pre-Bush were:
10% (income of $0 to $7,550), 15% ($7550 to $30650), 28% ($30,650 to $74,200), 31% ($74,200 to $154,800), 36% ($154,800 to $336,550), and 39.6% ($336,550 and up)

Here is what they went down to after Bush cut taxes:
10% (income of $0 to $7,550), 15% ($7550 to $30650), 25% ($30,650 to $74,200), 28% ($74,200 to $154,800), 33% ($154,800 to $336,550), and 35% ($336,550 and up).

The only reason the majority of the benefits of the Bush tax cuts went to the highest-earning 1% of the population is because the highest-earning 1% pay the majority of the tax revenue. The bottom-earning 50% pay virtually nothing.

If you cut taxes by 3% for someone earning $30,000 a year and someone earning $300,000 a year, the person earning $300,000 a year saves more money.

Once one makes over $100,000 a year, they are in the highest-earning portion of the population, however, there is still a large amount of hardworking professionals who make $100K, $150K, $200K, etc...who are far from wealthy, especially if they live in one of the expensive areas of New York or California. If you live in Manhattan for example, $300K a year is solidly middle-class.

I also do not believe it is morally right for the government to take so much of a person's money under the pre-Bush tax rate. Pre-Bush, if you are a hardworking lawyer making say $150K a year, 39% of your income alone goes to the Federal government; then you throw in state and local taxes, and you are talking about 50% or more of your income going to the government, and that's without sales taxes for things purchased to.

It's important to note that governors like Schwarzenegger etc. have already talked about doing things like this, and Massachusetts already has a mandated insurance plan and they were able to manage it.

As I said, California axed theirs and Massachusettes is experiencing an overload on their system right now.

So which health economist says that it is "unrealistic" and it amounts to the US controlling 16% of the economy by requiring children to be covered?

You have to remember that many of these economists function in the world of theory. While economists views are to be considered, one has to be careful; for example, during the Dot Com boom, I believe two Nobel Prize winning economists said it was a "new economy" and that stock prices would not go down; I also read, in a defense of people who thought that housing prices during the housing bubble would keep going up, that there were economists who did sound analysis and concluded that housing was not in a bubble; so I mean, take what economists write with a grain of salt and remember the basic laws, like supply/demand. If you have a limited supply, but an increase in demand (and when something is "free", people demand more of it, in particular if the "wealthy" are mostly paying for it), you will have to ration resources one way or another.

Is there a single serious study or a single reputed economist that calculates the effect of such announcements on the price of oil? Our own DoE says there is not going to be any noticeable change in price for several years.

Not totally sure; one reason I say prices should drop that is because when President Bush lifted the moratorium on drilling, the price began to drop, and the price increased a good deal for a while as well due to speculation, but I could be wrong; one another thing, is the DoE a reputable source, as aren't they mostly bureaucrats...?

One other thing though: even if drilling would not decrease oil prices for say ten years, why not start now? And at the same time, work on alternative energy? If we had started say in 1998, it would likely be helping right about now, for example. Ten years seems far out, until it arrives.
 
  • #30
WheelsRCool said:
Privatization alone does not equate to a free society when the government regulates prices, wages, and production quotas, as the Nazis did.

The Nazis did not interfere with the profits of some of their largest corporations, such as IG Farben, Krupp, Siemens AG, and so on. I don't know what you're talking about. These corporations were pretty much free to run amok.

Again, the Nazis PRIVATIZED far more industries than what had existed under the Weimar republican, and their problem, if anything, was giving corporations too much freedom -- such as the freedom to use slave labor.

WheelsRCool said:
Economic freedom, political freedom, social freedom, all require that the government, for the most part, keep its hands out of the economy and stick to its job of national defense, enforcing contracts and the law, etc...regulation is needed here and there, but for the most part, government should stay out of the economy.

I disagree. Both economic freedom and political freedom depend on how the government is protecting the power structures in a society, and who they are protecting.

There is more "government intervention" in European countries than the US in the economy, but I would classify them as more free because of the more diverse media options, less indoctrination, and more social freedoms.

Slavery often had a weak government, but it was more tyrannical than modern America, which is a more powerful government.

Feudalism, capitalism, all require the government to play a role -- which is why I'm opposed to these systems, as despots have no place in politics.

WheelsRCool said:
Neither is shifting it into the hands of a government tyranny, only the difference with the government is, there is nothing you can do to stop them.

Wrong. With a government, you can vote, with a corporation, you cannot vote, as the resources are already so controlled by them they force you to buy goods (you have to have goods to survive), forcing you to work job x just to get resource y.

"Voting with your dollars" is nonsense because it favors the wealthy heavily, whereas democracy is "one person, one vote."

Imagine a car manufacturer that has two lines of cars going. Say about 1,000 rich people want their first car, car A, and 90% of them will go out and buy it within the next few weeks. Say 10,000 people want car B because car B has better gas milage. Well, only a fraction of them can afford to pay for it right now, only a few buy it within the next few weeks, and so the car manufacturer decides to put car A on its main production line, forcing up the price of car B, or discontinuing it altogether. This happens even though more people wanted car B and could have even made the company more profits.

Or, imagine a TV set, and the company wants to sell it to 100 people at a higher price than they could sell it to a 1,000 people at a lower price, equal profits.

Such happens all the time in capitalism and in this kind of "voting" favors the rich, which is tyranny, which is despotic and not democratic.

With a company, you can stop buying their products, and if you don't like your employer, the worst they can do is stop paying you. That's a heck of a lot more lenient compared to a bureaucrat with the force of the government backing them up.

Wrong.

These companies came into existence before I was even born and I do not get to vote on them at all. They were already put in place by government grants, land theft, and are just the way the rich structured society. After all, I must use resources, and I must use the resources that are provided, thus I would be forced into this market tyranny. In a government, I am allowed to choose who I want to be the "CEO" of America incorporated, in a captialist economy, I never get to choose the CEO.

And even if there were more alternatives, it wouldn't matter because the alternatives don't get to compete on a level playing field. In an electoral democracy, everything is "reset" every two to four years, or six years, in a capitalist system, nothing is reset.

So, you actually have far more freedom in a public government than in a private corporation, which, again, is protected by the government anyway.

WheelsRCool said:
And "private tyrannies" do not form in free markets. Go read about all the "big businesses" such as store chains, supermarket chains, etc...that were huge in the 1920s and 1930s and 1940s. Most of them are either gone or much smaller than they used to be, because markets change, companies rise and fall. One can only create a monopoly, for the most part, through government regulation.

Those monopolies existed before anti-trust and anti-monopoly legislation was passed. They existed before the new deal. With the new deal, there would have been a decline in monopolies.

With Reaganism, of course, we began once again to see a consolidation of resources.

WheelsRCool said:
You look at all the industries with monopolies or near monopolies and they are highly regulated, such as farming, airlines, pharmaceuticals, health insurance, etc...

This is simply because capitalism has never worked completely on its own, as capitalism requires a government to back it up.

WheelsRCool said:
From my understanding, Bush did not cut taxes solely for the wealthy.

The tax rates pre-Bush were:
10% (income of $0 to $7,550), 15% ($7550 to $30650), 28% ($30,650 to $74,200), 31% ($74,200 to $154,800), 36% ($154,800 to $336,550), and 39.6% ($336,550 and up)

Here is what they went down to after Bush cut taxes:
10% (income of $0 to $7,550), 15% ($7550 to $30650), 25% ($30,650 to $74,200), 28% ($74,200 to $154,800), 33% ($154,800 to $336,550), and 35% ($336,550 and up).

The tax cuts certainly did favor the wealthy. The wealthy pay about 33% of the income tax yet saw a majority of the tax cuts, and their tax rates decreased by a higher percentage rate than that of the poor and middle class.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/16/politics/main636398.shtml

WheelsRCool said:
The only reason the majority of the benefits of the Bush tax cuts went to the highest-earning 1% of the population is because the highest-earning 1% pay the majority of the tax revenue. The bottom-earning 50% pay virtually nothing.

The bottom pay a lot of money into other taxes like social security and so on, which are regressive and which thus favor the rich. The rich are less likely to be hurting from a progressive tax cut than the poor are from a regressive tax cut, such as Bush's.

This weakens demand and thus leads to economic disaster, as we are seeing.

WheelsRCool said:
I also do not believe it is morally right for the government to take so much of a person's money under the pre-Bush tax rate. Pre-Bush, if you are a hardworking lawyer making say $150K a year, 39% of your income alone goes to the Federal government; then you throw in state and local taxes, and you are talking about 50% or more of your income going to the government, and that's without sales taxes for things purchased to.

I don't think it's morally right for the government to protect corporations at all. Howerver, since they do do this, I believe it is best to make the system as efficient and as fair and democratic as possible, and the way to do this would be to vote for Obama.

WheelsRCool said:
You have to remember that many of these economists function in the world of theory.

Yes, people in the "Austrian school" of economics work on unproven assumption and pseudo-sciences like "praxeology," while attacking the logic and reasoning of mathematics, whereas real economists have important work to do and analyze, and why the "Austrian school" is almost universally rejected in economics, even though economics is a highly conservative field as compared to the real sciences.
 

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