Who is the Greatest American in History?

[russ_watters]

I was a huge Reagan fan, but as for being the greatest American, not a chance. I would mark him as one of the most significant U.S. Presidents though. And I believe that he loved this country as much as anyone.

Yeah, this little side-issue aside, I don't know that I'd put Reagan in the top 5 greatest Presidents, much less greatest Americans (though the two often coincide). I do have a lot of respect for what he did though.

IMO, the greatest Presidents were Washington and Lincoln. Yeah, I know its cliche' but they really did do extrordinary things.

As for greatest American, its a pretty broad question - in what way?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Washington and Lincoln. Yeah, I know its cliche' but they really did do extrordinary things.

Things become a cliche' for a reason. Personally, I think Reagan "winning" this is a very sad comment on the schools.

 

[Astronuc]

You pretty much hit it on the head. The debate will be whether Regan was just in the right place at the right time or was it really due to his policies. I am a believer that he had quite a lot to do with the downfall.

There was a show on the History Channel last night on Regan and Gorbachev. They spent quite a bit of time on discussing just how freaked out the Russians were over SDI even though, at the time, it was simply an idea on paper.

Reagan just happened to be president at the time that USSR was collapsing internally. It had little to do with US policy. The war in Afghanistan affected USSR just like Vietnam affected US. Corruption was a big problem. Then Andropov died, Chernenko assumed office, then he died. Then Gorbachev took office, and assumed the reforms of Andropov.

But Reagan and Thatcher, rather help the situation contributed to the further demise of USSR, with the help of the rest of Europe, and now we have the mess with Russia that we have. Most of eastern Europe is still dealing with dysfunctional governments and societies, and many people are worse off than during communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Andropov

During his rule, Andropov made attempts to improve the economy and reduce corruption. He was also remembered for his anti-alcohol campaign and struggle for enhancement of work discipline. Both campaigns were carried out by a typically Soviet administrative approach and harshness vaguely reminiscent of Stalin's rule.

In foreign policy he achieved little — the war continued in Afghanistan. Andropov's rule was also marked by the deterioration of relations with the United States. While he launched a series of proposals that included a reduction of intermediate-range nuclear missiles in Europe and a summit with U.S. President Ronald Reagan, these proposals fell on the deaf ears of the Reagan and Thatcher administrations. Cold War tensions were exacerbated by the downing by Soviet fighters of a civilian jet liner that strayed over the USSR on September 1, 1983 and the United States deploying Pershing missiles in Europe in response to the Soviet SS-20. Soviet-U.S. arms control talks on intermediate-range nuclear weapons in Europe were suspended by the Soviet Union in November 1983.

One of his most famous acts during his short time as leader of the Soviet Union was responding to a letter from an American child named Samantha Smith and inviting her to the Soviet Union, which resulted in Smith becoming a well-known peace activist.


Andropov's legacy
Andropov died of kidney failure on February 9, 1984, after several months of failing health, and was succeeded by Konstantin Chernenko.

Andropov's legacy remains the subject of much debate within Russia and elsewhere, both amongst scholars and in the popular media. He remains the constant focus of television documentaries and popular non-fiction, particularly around important anniversaries.

Despite his hard-line stance in Hungary and the numerous banishments and intrigues for which he was responsible during his long tenure as head of the KGB, he has become widely regarded by many commentators as a humane reformer; they cite evidence that he promoted Mikhail Gorbachev through the ranks of the party and was regarded by many as comparatively tolerant as a KGB chief. He was certainly generally regarded as inclined to more gradual reform than was Gorbachev; the bulk of the speculation centres around whether Andropov would have reformed the USSR in a manner which did not result in its eventual destruction.

The short time he spent as leader, much of it in a state of extreme frailty, leaves debaters few concrete indications as to the nature of any hypothetical extended rule. As with the shortened rule of Lenin, speculators are left much room to advocate favourite theories and to develop the minor cult of personality which has formed around him.

 

[Astronuc]

Personally, I think Reagan "winning" this is a very sad comment on the schools.

What do mean Ivan? The kids absorb propaganda very well. Why should they be able to think for themselves, when they can grow up to be just like GW Bush.

 

[Janus]

I can't see how there can be any doubt that Ben Franklin should have been named number 1.

Consider:
Best selling author (Poor Richard's Almanac)
Founded first public library
Inventor
Scientist
Statesman
And the only person to sign all five documents instrumental to the establishment of the US:
Declaration of Independence
Treaty of Amity and Commerce with France
Treaty of Alliance with France
Treaty of Peace with Great Britain
Constitution of the United States

 

[Pengwuino]

I can't see how there can be any doubt that Ben Franklin should have been named number 1.

Look at whos taking the survey...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I can't see how there can be any doubt that Ben Franklin should have been named number 1.

Consider:
Best selling author (Poor Richard's Almanac)
Founded first public library
Inventor
Scientist
Statesman
And the only person to sign all five documents instrumental to the establishment of the US:
Declaration of Independence
Treaty of Amity and Commerce with France
Treaty of Alliance with France
Treaty of Peace with Great Britain
Constitution of the United States

Have you ever seen his lightning detector?

 

[Kakarot]

wtf is wrong with the discovery channel. it used to be great and now its run by mtv or something. I am gona have to order the science channel because right now only the history channel is worth watching

 

[russ_watters]

Personally, I think Reagan "winning" this is a very sad comment on the schools.

What do mean Ivan? The kids absorb propaganda very well.

My main source was a Harvard history professor: a more liberal source (while still remaining reputable) I cannot imagine.

Reagan just happened to be president at the time that USSR was collapsing internally. It had little to do with US policy.

I also quoted some guys in the government of the USSR. Even they say Reagan's policies had an effect!

The war in Afghanistan affected USSR just like Vietnam affected US.

Well, not exactly - the US didn't collapse.

But Reagan and Thatcher, rather help the situation contributed to the further demise of USSR...

Oh, so you do agree that Reagan "helped contribute to the further demise of the USSR"? So what are we arguing about? Anyway, what do you mean by "help the situation"? Should we have tried to keep the USSR from collapsing?

...and now we have the mess with Russia that we have. Most of eastern Europe is still dealing with dysfunctional governments and societies...

Dysfunctional is better than brutally oppressive. Just ask any of the guys that marched on Belgrade and took down one such leader.

...and many people are worse off than during communism.

And many more are better. What are you trying to say - the world would be better off if the USSR were intact? What a horrifying thought!

 

[Pengwuino]

wtf is wrong with the discovery channel. it used to be great and now its run by mtv or something. I am gona have to order the science channel because right now only the history channel is worth watching

History channel and the travel channel are all i watch anymore :-/ Oh and hte military channel... and occasionally discovery times when they have a casino show on... 500 channels and all i watch are 4 of them.

 

[ray b]

Two things:

1) What did Eli Whitney do that made him so great? Is there something besides the cotton gin that I missed? And hell, the cotton gin was a catalyst for a huge increase in slavery, so it must be something else, right?

the IDEA of MASS PRODUCTION

the cotton gin couldnot be produced fast enuff to meet demand
so it was a widely copyed comercial BUST as fars as making whitney RICH
as the gins were simple to make
so everyone made their own

his fame as inventor of the gin
led to a government contract to produce guns
he tryed to mass produce the guns useing machine tools
to produce standerd parts
there by inventing the MODERN FACTORY
thats his true claim to fame

should he allso be credited with inventing
the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX tooo?

 

[1123581321]

fibo's list of greatest americans:
Lincoln
Washington
FDR
Jefferson
Franklin
Wrights
Lewis & Clark
Grant
Einstein
Sherman
Martin Luther King JR
Reagan
Robert E. Lee
...

 

[Evo]

I can't see how there can be any doubt that Ben Franklin should have been named number 1.

Have you ever listed to the glass armonica (harmonica) that Franklin invented?

 

[Smurf]

fibo's list of greatest americans:

...

Einstein

...

... Ah-hem?

 

[Astronuc]

In 1901, the year he gained his diploma, Albert Einstein acquired Swiss citizenship.

He became a German citizen in 1914 and remained in Berlin until 1933 when he renounced his citizenship for political reasons and emigrated to America to take the position of Professor of Theoretical Physics at Princeton. He became a United States citizen in 1940.

from http://nobelprize.org/physics/laureates/1921/einstein-bio.html

 

[sid_galt]

Where Is Thomas Paine?

 

[loseyourname]

Yes, it probably is. Ever heard of a little idea known as the assembly line' ? Whitney single-handedly revolutionized the manufacturing process.

Where did you get this from? I've been looking up sources to be sure, and everything I come up with says that Ransome Olds was the first manufacturer to use an assembly line and that Henry Ford was the first to use an assembly line on a conveyor belt, which is when modern factory techniques really took off. Whitney may have started mass production, but you might be giving him too much credit to give him the assembly line.

 

[loseyourname]

What about Andrew Carnegie? I can't think of any single person that better epitomizes the mythology of the American dream. He immigrated to the US as a poor boy with nothing but his wits, and using nothing but those wits, he climbed the ranks of industry until he was the second richest man in the entire world. He still holds the record for the largest personal buyout in the history of business. At his peak, he was far and away the most prolific manufacturer of steel in the world. He's probably the one person single most responsible for the enormous infrastructure buildup, including the development of the modern skyscraper made possible by steel skeletons, that resulted in the huge boom in the world prominence of US cities, particularly New York and Chicago. All the while he continued to control 18 English radical newspapers in the hopes of helping his native Scotland.

In retirement, he became the greatest philanthropist the world had ever seen, giving away over $350 million, which was more money than all but a handful of people had ever personally possessed. He established over 1600 public libraries in the US alone, and over 3000 worldwide, along with two universities. He was also the largest benefactor of Tuskegee University, one of the largest historically black colleges in the US.

Despite being the second-richest and one of the most powerful men in the world, he remained humble and thoughtful of others. In addition to the work he did to help Scotland, he was one of the most fervent critics of American imperialism. On his tombstone, his epithet praises the men he surrounded himself with for making his success possible. In addition to that personal success, he stands as an example to every self-made person who has come since, even commissioning a study of 500 millionaires that resulted in the publishing of Napoleon Hill's Laws of Success.

In his own words:

Man does not live by bread alone. I have known millionaires starving for lack of the nutriment which alone can sustain all that is human in man, and I know workmen, and many so-called poor men, who revel in luxuries beyond the power of those millionaires to reach. It is the mind that makes the body rich. There is no class so pitiably wretched as that which possesses money and nothing else. Money can only be the useful drudge of things immeasurably higher than itself. Exalted beyond this, as it sometimes is, it remains Caliban still and still plays the beast. My aspirations take a higher flight. Mine be it to have contributed to the enlightenment and the joys of the mind, to the things of the spirit, to all that tends to bring into the lives of the toilers of Pittsburgh sweetness and light. I hold this the noblest possible use of wealth.

To come up from nothing to become fabulously rich and powerful, not for the sake of being fabulously rich and powerful, but for the sake of using that wealth and power to improve the lives of everyone around you - if that is not the absolute pinnacle of the American dream, what is?

 

[FredGarvin]

Where did you get this from? I've been looking up sources to be sure, and everything I come up with says that Ransome Olds was the first manufacturer to use an assembly line and that Henry Ford was the first to use an assembly line on a conveyor belt, which is when modern factory techniques really took off. Whitney may have started mass production, but you might be giving him too much credit to give him the assembly line.

It might be a bit more precise to say that he invented the idea of mass production. Whitney invented the milling machine in an effort to remove specialized skills in musket making.

http://www.eliwhitney.org/inventor.htm

He was to lay the foundation and invent the techniques for what has become known as the "American System of Manufacture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Production-line

From the processing of raw materials into useful goods, the next step was the concept of the assembly line, as introduced by Eli Whitney.

http://www.grohol.com/psypsych/Assembly_line

The assembly line was first introduced by Eli Whitney to create muskets for the U.S. Government

 

[Astronuc]

Reagan just happened to be president at the time that USSR was collapsing internally. It had little to do with US policy.

I also quoted some guys in the government of the USSR. Even they say Reagan's policies had an effect!

The collapse was inevitable. Unfortunately, the reforms being introduced by Andropov and then Gorbachev were being undermined internally and externally.

The war in Afghanistan affected USSR just like Vietnam affected US.

Well, not exactly - the US didn't collapse.

Clarification - I should have emphasized psychologically. Both the US and USSR population became disillusioned with the war, but in USSR this had a more severe impact.

But Reagan and Thatcher, rather help the situation contributed to the further demise of USSR...

Oh, so you do agree that Reagan "helped contribute to the further demise of the USSR"? So what are we arguing about? Anyway, what do you mean by "help the situation"? Should we have tried to keep the USSR from collapsing?

I do mean further. Collapse was inevitable. However, the collapse went too far, too fast. Corrupt communists, became corrupt oligarchs. There has been much pillaging of resources by politically connected people - it's as though some countries are being run by organized crime syndicates.

Dysfunctional is better than brutally oppressive. Just ask any of the guys that marched on Belgrade and took down one such leader.

Not according to some of my friends who have to deal with the current situation. In many ways, life is more dangerous now, and only a minority are doing 'much' better than before. Those doing the best mostly likely are doing it dishonestly.

Granted, the regimes in Romania (Nicolae Ceauşescu) and Albania (Enver Hoxha) were horrible. Those needed quick replacement.

As for Belgrade, I think you meant 'Bucharest'. The Romanias marched on Buchrest (Bucuresti).

On December 21, the mass meeting, held in what is now Revolution Square, degenerated into anarchy. A stunned Ceauşescu couple, failing to control the crowds, finally took cover inside the CC Building, where they remained until the next day. The rest of the day saw a revolt of the Bucharest population, who had assembled in University Square, and confronted the police and the army on barricades. These initial events are regarded to this day as the genuine revolution. However, the unarmed rioters were no match for the military apparatus concentrated in Bucharest, which cleared the streets by midnight and arrested hundreds of people in the process.

- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Revolution_of_1989

In Belgrade, Yugoslavia, Slobodan Milosevic retained power through the early 1990's, and we know the tragic result - the mass homicides in Croatia and Bosna i Hercegovina, and the genocide in Kosovo.

Miloševic's mentor and close personal friend Ivan Stambolic was the party leader in the Serbian section of the ruling League of Communists of Yugoslavia. In September 1987, Stambolic became the President of Serbia and supported Miloševic in the elections for the new leader, to the dismay of the other leaders in the party. Stambolic spent three days advocating Miloševic's election and finally managed to secure him a tight victory, the tightest ever in the history of Serbian Communist Party internal elections.

Contrary to the liberal reforms of Communism in the Soviet Union at the time, Miloševic quickly took a hard line against liberalism in the party and proceeded to use such a policy to eliminate his political adversaries.

Dragiša Pavlovic, Miloševic's fairly liberal successor at the head of the Belgrade Committee of the party, opposed his policy towards the solving of the issues of the Kosovo Serbs, calling it "hastily promised speed". Miloševic denounced Pavlovic as being soft on Albanian radicals, contrary to advice from Stambolic. In 23 September/24th, on the subsequent eighth session of the Central Committee, one that lasted around 30 hours, and was broadcast live on the state television, Miloševic had Pavlovic deposed, to the utter embarrassment of Ivan Stambolic, who resigned under pressure from Miloševic's supporters a few days later.

In February 1988, Stambolic was officially voted off the position and Miloševic could take his place. Miloševic would later be charged with ordering the murder of Stambolic. Ivan Stambolic was kidnapped in the summer of 2000; his body was found three years later. As of 2004, members of Serbian criminal gangs close to Miloševic are indicted at the Belgrade court for this murder (among others).


On the 14th Congress of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia in January 1990, the delegation of Serbia led by Miloševic insisted on the reversal of 1974 Constitution policy that empowered the republics and rather wanted to introduce a policy of "one person, one vote", which would empower the majority population, the Serbs. This caused the Slovenian and Croatian delegations (led by Milan Kucan and Ivica Racan, resp.) to leave the Congress in protest and marked a culmination in the rift of the Yugoslav ruling party.

Miloševic presided over the transformation of the League of Communists of Serbia into the Socialist Party of Serbia (July 1990) and the adoption of a new Serbian constitution (September 1990) providing for the direct election of a president with increased powers. Miloševic was subsequently re-elected president of the Serbian Republic in the direct elections of December 1990 and December 1992.

In the first free parliamentary elections of December 1990, Miloševic's Socialist Party won 80.5% of the vote. The ethnic Albanians in Kosovo largely boycotted the election, effectively eliminating even what little opposition Miloševic had. Miloševic himself won the presidential election with even higher percentage of the vote.

from Wikipedia

...and many people are worse off than during communism.

And many more are better. What are you trying to say - the world would be better off if the USSR were intact?

No, the many are not doing better, as I have witnessed in person.

My position is that the transition to democracy and free market system could have been handled differently and with a better outcome. Instead the West (US included) made big mistakes in allowing the USSR to collapse as quickly as it did. Neither Reagan or Bush saw it coming and were unprepared to lend proper assistance. The result has been an unnecessary and avoidable amount of suffering, and much less security in the world.

 

[McGyver]

How Do I Get on the List

I was wondering how I might get placed on this list?

I've done some very extraordinary things over the last 13 years in public policy, science, volunteering, and helping others in need - all after I suffered a 1992 brain injury, and without any financial remuneration. So I think I should be considered for this list of Great Americans.

I also did many remarkable things in earlier years - like save a man (stranger) while scuba diving who nearly killed us both, and fixed a demolished vehicle with a steak knife and electrical tape in Mexico in order to get a group of 5 women and teens back to the states.

I too would like consideration for this list.

Stephen Dolle
www.diaceph.com

 

[Astronuc]

I've done some very extraordinary things over the last 13 years in public policy, science, volunteering, and helping others in need - all after I suffered a 1992 brain injury, and without any financial remuneration. So I think I should be considered for this list of Great Americans.

I also did many remarkable things in earlier years - like save a man (stranger) while scuba diving who nearly killed us both, and fixed a demolished vehicle with a steak knife and electrical tape in Mexico in order to get a group of 5 women and teens back to the states.

You have my vote.

 

[SOS2008]

Back to the OP, while like most Americans I personally liked Reagan (for the most part), no modern person can be more revered than Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, etc. And as I said earlier in GD, Dubya hasn't even finished his second term, and much more time is needed to know how he will be viewed historically. As someone posted, the results of this poll probably reflects a lack of historical knowledge among Americans, which is sad.

Aside from that, Reagan was not responsible for the collapse of the USSR anymore than Dubya can take credit for elections in Lebanon or anywhere else. These presidents are only legends in their supporter's minds.

 

[kaos]

The greatest American? The native american chief that got Custer. Now that's something. Too bad his success was not repeated often.

 

[McGyver]

Thanks for the vote, Astronuc. As I'm an optimist, that means I'm tied for last place, but now moving up on the list.

 

[russ_watters]

My position is that the transition to democracy and free market system could have been handled differently and with a better outcome. Instead the West (US included) made big mistakes in allowing the USSR to collapse as quickly as it did. Neither Reagan or Bush saw it coming and were unprepared to lend proper assistance. The result has been an unnecessary and avoidable amount of suffering, and much less security in the world.

I don't know if it would have been possible for the US to intervene to help stabilize the USSR or not, but I do think that it was far more important to us to ensure that the USSR did collapse.

And Reagan most certainly did see it coming. One of the links I provided is about the flip-flop of the Democrats: while Reagan claimed that collapse was inevitable and a final push by us could topple the USSR quickly, a great many Democrats claimed that the USSR was economically and politically stable. Then after the collapse, many of the very same people flipped and started saying it was inevitable and Reagan did little to nothing to effect it. Whether they actually believed it was stable in 1980 or just said it to counter Reagan is irrelevant - they said it.

As for Belgrade, I think you meant 'Bucharest'. The Romanias marched on Buchrest (Bucuresti).

No, I meant Belgrade - Milosevich was taken down by a popular revolt following us cutting him off at the knee with our bombing campaign.

No, the many are not doing better, as I have witnessed in person.

And I've been to Poland and Lituania. But that's all just anecdotal anyway. While its true that the situation for many Russians, specifically, has worstened, there are a good dozen other countries that were behind the iron curtain or were part of the USSR. Whether the overall situation behind the iron curtain is better or worse than in 1988, I honestly don't know, but I suspect it is better - either by total population or country by country (but of course, Russia is the largest). And I'm actually more concerned with those other countries than Russia itself because of the way they were raped by the USSR.

 

[Informal Logic]

...you could claim it was all part of a long, slow decline starting they day after the revolution ended (which, frankly, I believe)...

Yep, this is what I claim (does that make me a kettle?).

...Here's the first reasonable link I found: http://wais.stanford.edu/History/history_ussrandreagan.htm )...

From your link:

Several WAISers disagreed with Christopher Jones, who denied Reagan's role in the collapse of the Soviet Union. Harry Papasotiriou writes: "The Soviet Union certainly collapsed of its own weight, but Reagan helped speed up the process. The following paragraphs are from a forthcoming book that I am co-authoring.

Reagan’s conviction that the Soviet Union was both a dangerous military power and a collapsing economic system derived not from any deep knowledge of the Soviet Union. Yet he proved to be the proverbial right man in the right place at the right time.

To clarify all this, if the USSR had been stable before Reagan became president, do you think he could have caused a collapse? No. He could only push over what was already toppling. Even as highlighted in your other source, at best Reagan can only be given credit for accelerating the collapse. So what are you arguing?

Back to the OP, do you feel Reagan should be #1 -- ahead of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.? Because I do not, and this is really the point I was making.

 

[russ_watters]

Yep, this is what I claim (does that make me a kettle?).

No, it just makes you miss the point.

To clarify all this, if the USSR had been stable before Reagan became president, do you think he could have caused a collapse? No. He could only push over what was already toppling. Even as highlighted in your other source, at best Reagan can only be given credit for accelerating the collapse. So what are you arguing?

That is precisely what I'm arguing: that Reagan accelerated the collapse of the USSR. Its what I said in post 25 in response to someone else's claim that Reagan had "nothing to do with the fall of the [USSR]". That assertion is false and you seem to agree that its false since you seem to agree that he helped accelerate its collapse. If you don't disagree with my claim that "Reagan help[ed] to destroy the USSR" (ie, he "accelerated" it, as you suggested), why are you arguing with me?

Back to the OP, do you feel Reagan should be #1 -- ahead of Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, etc.? Because I do not, and this is really the point I was making.

No I don't - a question which I answered in post 31

 

[quetzalcoatl9]

Oliver Evans, the inventor of the refrigerator.

I believe that this is an invention which does not get the credit due. The refrigerator has made starvation a thing of the past for countries with energy/electricity. It also made food a semi non-perishable, so that most of us can devote our lives to things other than gathering food and leave that to others in a more manageable way.

 

[Art]

I believe that this is an invention which does not get the credit due. The refrigerator has made starvation a thing of the past for countries with energy/electricity.

Isn't that the food replicator in Star Trek you're thinking of jk