News Who truly won the battle between Israel and Gaza?

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The discussion centers on the ongoing conflict between Israel and Gaza, questioning who truly won after 22 days of warfare. Many participants argue that no side can claim victory, as both Israel and Hamas have suffered significant losses, particularly among civilians. The violence has reportedly increased Hamas's popularity and support among Palestinians, despite the group's losses in leadership. The impact on Gazan civilians is highlighted, with widespread destruction and casualties leading to a sense of hopelessness. Ultimately, the conversation reflects a consensus that the cycle of violence continues to harm innocent people without a clear resolution in sight.
  • #51


Hurkyl said:
So what? That doesn't obviate them of the responsibility of choosing civilian areas to be the battleground.
There is not a single part of that little strip of land that is not a "civilian area". Gaza is a very densely populated little area. It does not look good for Israel that they have attacked UN-sanctioned schools and UN offices in Gaza, either. Israel has very accurate munitions and high-res intelligence images, so the "oops" excuse won't play out very well.
 
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  • #52


turbo-1 said:
There is not a single part of that little strip of land that is not a "civilian area".
(1) That's easy to claim. Do you have proof?
(2) Even if accurate, it is obviously not a defense, because there are parts of that little strip of land that are not schools or hospitals or whatever.
(3) Even if such parts don't exist, there exist parts of land that are not Gaza.
 
  • #53


Do you want to spar over minutia? Do you want to disagree that after the Palestinians democratically elected Hamas as their government, the Israelis and the US refused to acknowledge them because they weren't the "preferred" outcome? The US has a great track-record of promoting "democracy" as long as the elections come out as intended by the money-men running our government.

Israel has occupied Gaza and the West Bank for a long time, and has blockaded Gaza extensively and has funded settlements in the West Bank, which are both violations of International Law. It's time that some balance is brought to US policy in the region. Israel exists not because the Israelis have managed to forge some cooperation with neighbors, but because US taxpayers have been bled to make it the most heavily armed (per capita) country on Earth.
 
  • #54


What does Hamas have to gain in missiling Isreal?

I might google Hamas Weapons Money Iran Holy War if I wanted to know.
 
  • #55


turbo-1 said:
Do you want to spar over minutia?
I don't want discuss red herrings. And as such, I don't bother with the rest of your post, since it doesn't even resemble being related to my comment that you're responding to.
 
  • #56


Evo said:
I agree, Hamas is incompetant. They are the ones that have chosen war by attacking Israel. Israel is completely blameless in this.
Hamas's attacks on Israel certainly aren't doing any good, but you have your cause and effect reversed here. Palestinians never asked to have their homeland colonized out from under them, yet Israel has insisted on doing it regardless and since long before there was any Hamas. There are now nearly half a million Israeli settlers all across Palestinian territory, while millions of Palestinians are kept under strict Israeli military control as Israeli civilian colonizers effectively wipe Palestine off the map. Here is a fairly current map of this process, with all the blue area and roads under Israeli control and Israeli authorised limited Palestinian autonomy in brown:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Separation_Barrier_Map_Eng.pdf

Did you watch the documentary The Dagda posted? It is made by Israelis who are trying to end the this conquest over what little is left of Palestine:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2451908450811690589

There are is a lot of propaganda and out-right lies perpetuated to blame the victim and praise the aggressor, but this is simply a war of conquest over Palestine.
Hurkyl said:
And of course, like any other bomb, it's going to damage everything around it, not just the intended target.
Sure, and it you drop one on a crowded residential area to kill one man who is at home with his family, you'll wind up killing and maiming many innocent bystanders as well.

Here is an interview with a Palestinian astrophysicist who working at Virginia Tech with NASA, and who's son was fatally wounded when his families house in Gaza was bombed:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/16/palestinian_father_in_us_recounts_how
 
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  • #57


Phrak said:
What does Hamas have to gain in missiling Isreal?

I might google Hamas Weapons Money Iran Holy War if I wanted to know.
It's pretty much the only leverage that desperate Palestinians have in convincing the Israeli government to engage them. Aside from spurring internal Israeli pressure to encourage engagement, there is little that Hamas can do to get any recognition or low-level inter-governmental conversations. Israel and the US intend to isolate Hamas and starve them out. It might work, but in the meantime, thousands of Palestinians die and suffer of wounds that might never be properly be addressed due to lack of food, medicine, etc.
 
  • #58


kyleb said:
Sure, and it you drop one on a crowded residential area to kill one man who is at home with his family, you'll wind up killing and maiming many innocent bystanders as well.
That was the point. We are not living in a sci-fi fantasy where weapons kill exactly the intended target and nobody else -- thus, the following argument is ridiculously stupid:
1. Israel is bombing with collateral damage
2. Israel has weapons that could kill exactly the intended target and nobody else
3. Therefore, Israel must be campaigning to wipe out all Palestinians.

Here is an interview with a Palestinian astrophysicist who working at Virginia Tech with NASA, and who's son was fatally wounded when his families house in Gaza was bombed:

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/16/palestinian_father_in_us_recounts_how
*gasp* Collateral damage happens? This changes my entire outlook on the war!

Oh wait a minute... I already knew that collateral damage happens! What was the point of this?
 
  • #59


turbo-1 said:
It's time that some balance is brought to US policy in the region. Israel exists not because the Israelis have managed to forge some cooperation with neighbors, but because US taxpayers have been bled to make it the most heavily armed (per capita) country on Earth.
So what do you propose? Stop funding Israel, and instead send American soldiers into stop the rocket attacks, and whatever other stunts its neighbors decide to pull? Any reasonable proposal is going to have to include either:
(1) Giving enough aid to Israel to let them deal with rocket attacks on their own
(2) Other countries using their own military forces to deal with rocket attacks
So... are you proposing we send American troops into stop the rocket attacks?
 
  • #60


Evo said:
I agree, Hamas is incompetant. They are the ones that have chosen war by attacking Israel. Israel is completely blameless in this.

I wouldn't call Hamas or it's members incompetent without first knowing their intent, which, more often as not boils down to power and enrichment of it's members at the greater expense of others. The embargo acts against these basic motivators.

Surely it's not a military win, they have in mind, but something else. They have an embargo they should wish to end in order to obtain a weapons supply. If they can't do this, they will loose the support of their international allies to another political party. They are also fighting a propaganda war.

I can think of only two possible motives:
1) to break the Egyptian embargo through influencing Egyptian public opinion
2) to obtain UN sanctions against Israel to end the Israeli blockage

Hamas don't have a lot of cards to play in either, or any other endeavor, but to fire missiles over the boarder, then cry foul when Palestinian civilians get killed in the backlash. They have plenty of shills, worldwide, to help spread the word as you can obviously see. But sacrificing civilians has always been a crowd pleaser to the Palestinians in this asymmetrical warfare, garnering wide international sympathy and armfuls of UN sactions against Israel, so it shouldn’t be underrated.
 
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  • #61


Here's a tidbit supporting theory 2.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/israel-halts-gaza-assault"

"The killing continued in the hours before the meeting, with the United Nations refugee agency for Palestinians calling for a war crimes investigation after Israeli forces killed two children when they shelled a school being used as a refugee centre in northern Gaza."
 
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  • #62


Hurkyl said:
So what do you propose? Stop funding Israel, and instead send American soldiers into stop the rocket attacks, and whatever other stunts its neighbors decide to pull? Any reasonable proposal is going to have to include either:
(1) Giving enough aid to Israel to let them deal with rocket attacks on their own
(2) Other countries using their own military forces to deal with rocket attacks
So... are you proposing we send American troops into stop the rocket attacks?
Enough with the breathless extrapolations. Israel has some methods to deal with Hamas, though it has shown that any method that involves truce and negotiation is politically a non-starter with their right wing. It is high time that US taxpayer money be withheld until such time that Israel can demonstrate a willingness to co-exist with the "neighbors" that it forcibly evicted from their property 60 years ago, instead of continuing to steal more and more territory in the name of "self-defense".
 
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  • #63


Here's a very telling article.

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-37507520090117"

"TEHRAN (Reuters) - Iran accused Israel of using white-phosphorus munitions in Gaza and called for an investigation in a letter to an international watchdog agency made available to media on Saturday."

There's an accompanying photograph of an aerial phosphorus bomb. Who was grinding the film? Has Iran sent a propaganda arm to Gaza? Do they have a resident propaganda crew? How did this photograph arrive at Reuters' Tehran office?

Another paragraph:

""It is becoming increasingly alarming that the Zionist regime's troops are employing prohibited weapons with impunity against the population of Gaza ... such as white phosphorus," Mottaki wrote to OPCW Director-General Rogelio Pfirter."
...
"Israel has refused comment on the munitions..."

Some boneheaded decision-maker in Israel screwed the pooch giving the green light on this. It makes no never-mind if international law is against this or not. This is a propaganda screw-up of major proportions. What kind of war did this guy think was being fought?
 
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  • #64


kyleb said:
There are is a lot of propaganda and out-right lies perpetuated to blame the victim and praise the aggressor,...
You're tellin' me.

but this is simply a war of conquest over Palestine.

It’s tragic, isn't it? I don't see any other option that Israel has. If someone came killing on me and mine year after year trying to wipe us out, what other options would I have, if I have the capability, than to wipe them out? What would you recommend that Hamas should do to end this Israelis attitude?

I have a really weird idea. What if Hamas stopped trying to kill Israelis. Do you thing that might help alieve the Israeli fears?

I know it's really stupid, because Hamas doesn't want to stop killing Israelis. It empowers them. But just in case they find God or something, what do you think?
 
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  • #65
Hurkyl said:
That was the point. We are not living in a sci-fi fantasy where weapons kill exactly the intended target and nobody else -- thus, the following argument is ridiculously stupid:
1. Israel is bombing with collateral damage
2. Israel has weapons that could kill exactly the intended target and nobody else
3. Therefore, Israel must be campaigning to wipe out all Palestinians.
I wasn't attempting to suggest anything of the sort. I was simply referring to the callous disregard for human life displayed by Israel's tactics.
Hurkyl said:
*gasp* Collateral damage happens? This changes my entire outlook on the war!

Oh wait a minute... I already knew that collateral damage happens! What was the point of this?
My point is simply that such "collateral damage" has traumatic effects on people, including people who are working to help us.
Hurkyl said:
So what do you propose? Stop funding Israel, and instead send American soldiers into stop the rocket attacks, and whatever other stunts its neighbors decide to pull?
American soldiers aren't going to stop the rockets anymore than Israeli ones have. I suggest we persuade Israel into accepting Palestinians rights under international law, though funding cuts, and though economic sanctions if that is what it takes, much the same way apartheid was ended in South Africa. That is what the vast majority of the nations of the world have been voting for in the UN General Assembly for decades now, but US veto power has been exploited prevent any binding resolutions. That is what the Arab peace plan proposes as well:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1844214.stm

Yet Israel, with the US holding it's hand, has continued to thumb their noses at any such peace, and kept expanding their colonization over what little of Palestine is left.

Phrak said:
I wouldn't call Hamas or it's members incompetent without first knowing their intent, which, more often as not boils down to power and enrichment of it's members at the greater expense of others.
Well that was a wild stab in the dark. If you bother to look into it, Fatah is the corrupt money and power people, who allowed themselves to be paid goons in Israel's ongoing colonization. Here, from the horse's mouth:
Ismail Haniyeh said:
...
Ultimately, the Palestinians are a people struggling for freedom from occupation and the establishment of an independent state with Jerusalem as its capital and the return of refugees to their villages from which they were expelled. Whatever the cost, the continuation of Israel's massacres will neither break our will nor our aspiration for freedom and independence.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/ismail-haniyeh-my-message-to-the-west-ndash-israel-must-stop-the-slaughter-1366726.html

Granted, their rockets are only doing harm, but not shooting rockets during the truce didn't help anything either, so they went back to where they were. I highly doubt they expected such an overwhelming response from Israel though, or expected Egypt to open the boarder. Egypt doesn't want to get drawn into a war with Israel, so they can't rightly take in masses of Palestinians as long as some might turn around to attack Israel though Egypt.

Phrak said:
They have plenty of shills, worldwide, to help spread the word as you can obviously see.
I see a lot more shills for Israel's conquest over what little is left of Palestine. Why do you defned it with your gueswork about Hamas?
 
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  • #66


turbo-1 said:
It's pretty much the only leverage that desperate Palestinians have in convincing the Israeli government to engage them.

Right. They succeeded in engaging Israel in more war.

Aside from spurring internal Israeli pressure to encourage engagement, there is little that Hamas can do to get any recognition or low-level inter-governmental conversations.

What kind of conversation do you think Hamas wants and doesn't have? Hey. I have an idea. What if the Hamas membership decided to go away and let some party that isn't h*ll bent on distroying Israel, but will sues for peace take over. The Hamas membership can go back to selling street food, happy in their altruistic decission. This would serve to motivate the 'conversation' you have in mind. But this wouldn't be in self interest of the Hamas membership, would it. What do you think?

Israel and the US intend to isolate Hamas and starve them out...

Israel intends to stop weapons stockpiling.
 
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  • #67


russ_watters said:
That's wrong on several levels:

1. There is no such thing as a white phosphorus "bomb".
2. There are white phosphorus shells, which are used for the smoke generated to obscure troop movement.

Not only naive, but false. Did you just make this up?

White Phosphorus (WP) is a chemical element used in conventional ammunition used for signaling, screening, and incendiary purposes, as well as for it’s anti-personnel (AP) capabilities.

What is White Phosphorus? Primarily used in bombs, artillery shells, and mortar shells, grenades,flares tracers, etc.

...H2OHighly Hygroscopic –will impact a person
Inhaled –will destroy lung tissue resulting in agonizing death
Contact with clothing – will burn through to skin unless treated immediately
Contact with skin – will burn down to the bone if not treated immediatelyProcessing
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007global_demil/SessionIIA/1410Garner.pdf
 
  • #68


Phrak said:
What kind of conversation do you think Hamas wants and doesn't have?
There is no reason to guess, a little research will answer your question.

Put simply, Israel has never shown interest in any conversation that doesn't leave Palestinians in a permanent state of subjugation to Israel. That is something the vast majority Palestinians don't have any interest in agreeing to, Hamas or otherwise, yet Israel has been insistent on nothing less since long before Hamas existed.

Again, check into Israel's "Generous Offer" at Camp David II for yourself, and you'll see what I'm saying is true. However, you'll have to look past the fudged percentage figures Israel claims, and actually understand the details of the "peace offer" to see the reality it.
 
  • #69


kyleb said:
There is no reason to guess, a little research will answer your question.

Put simply, Israel has never shown interest in any conversation that doesn't leave Palestinians in a permanent state of subjugation to Israel. That is something the vast majority Palestinians don't have any interest in agreeing to, Hamas or otherwise, yet Israel has been insistent on nothing less since long before Hamas existed.

Again, check into Israel's "Generous Offer" at Camp David II for yourself, and you'll see what I'm saying is true. However, you'll have to look past the fudged percentage figures Israel claims, and actually understand the details of the "peace offer" to see the reality it.

Fair enough. I'll do so when my wonderful 400 bytes per second download rate offers me the time to do so. See you tomorrow--maybe.
 
  • #70


Several people here have dismissed the disparity between civilian deaths of Israeli civilians and of Palestinian civilians as irrelevant. These people are obviously ignorant of the international rules and laws which cover the principles of Jus Ad Bellum, Jus In Bello and Jus post bellum collectively known as Just War.

Under international law, failure to show the requirements of Jus Ad Bellum has been met prior to the beginning of a war leaves the leaders of the military adventure open to prosecution for war crimes.

The 6th requirement of Jus Ad Bellum deals specifically with the issue of proportionality. This is defined in the Stanford Encyclopaedia as
6. Proportionality. A state must, prior to initiating a war, weigh the universal goods expected to result from it, such as securing the just cause, against the universal evils expected to result, notably casualties. Only if the benefits are proportional to, or “worth”, the costs may the war action proceed. (The universal must be stressed, since often in war states only tally their own expected benefits and costs, radically discounting those accruing to the enemy and to any innocent third parties.)
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/ Note the emphasis on the Universiality element. The good of your own citizens has to be weighed against the likely harm to your enemy's citizens resulting from a proposed war. The high civilian death toll in Gaza including over 400 children raises the question was this requirement fulfilled? In law a state's right of self defence is the same as an individual's. For example if a person slaps you you cannot pull out a gun and shoot him and you certainly cannot slaughter his wife, kids and neighbours. i.e. Your response must be proportionate.

Once the war has begun; Jus in Bello; further rules come into play.

In relation to the current conflict these include,

1) Obey all international laws on weapons prohibition. Under the Nuremberg Principle this applies whether or not a warring party has itself signed up to any international treaty banning or limiting the use of a particular weapon. In the case of white phosphorous, although not banned outright, there are international laws governing the circumstances and environment under which it can be used. There is prima facie evidence Israel may be in breach of those rules for allegedly using this weapon in densely populated civilian areas.

2. Discrimination and Non-Combatant Immunity. Soldiers are only allowed to use their (non-banned) weapons against those 'engaged in harm'. To deliberately target non-combatants is a war crime. Given the accusations from credible UN sources of targeting of ambulances, UN schools, the university, hospitals and even the media tower it would seem Israel certainly has a case to answer in this regard.

3) Proportionality. Again actions taken must be proportional to the military goal sought.

4) No reprisals. A reprisal is when country A violates jus in bello in war with country B. Country B then retaliates with its own violation of jus in bello, seeking to chasten A into obeying the rules.

And so arguing Hamas broke the rules of war and so therefore Israel can too is not a valid excuse under international law.

Finally there are rules regarding Jus post bellum which are, or may become, pertinent here,

1. Proportionality and Publicity. The peace settlement should be measured and reasonable, as well as publicly proclaimed. To make a settlement serve as an instrument of revenge is to make a volatile bed one may be forced to sleep in later. In general, this rules out insistence on unconditional surrender.

2. Rights Vindication. The settlement should secure those basic rights whose violation triggered the justified war. The relevant rights include human rights to life and liberty and community entitlements to territory and sovereignty. This is the main substantive goal of any decent settlement, ensuring that the war will actually have an improving affect. Respect for rights, after all, is a foundation of civilization, whether national or international. Vindicating rights, not vindictive revenge, is the order of the day.

3. Discrimination. Distinction needs to be made between the leaders, the soldiers, and the civilians in the defeated country one is negotiating with. Civilians are entitled to reasonable immunity from punitive post-war measures. This rules out sweeping socio-economic sanctions as part of post-war punishment.

4. Punishment #1. When the defeated country has been a blatant, rights-violating aggressor, proportionate punishment must be meted out. The leaders of the regime, in particular, should face fair and public international trials for war crimes.

5. Punishment #2. Soldiers also commit war crimes. Justice after war requires that such soldiers, from all sides to the conflict, likewise be held accountable to investigation and possible trial.

6. Compensation. Financial restitution may be mandated, subject to both proportionality and discrimination. A post-war poll tax on civilians is generally impermissible, and there needs to be enough resources left so that the defeated country can begin its own reconstruction. To beggar thy neighbor is to pick future fights.

7. Rehabilitation. The post-war environment provides a promising opportunity to reform decrepit institutions in an aggressor regime. Such reforms are permissible but they must be proportional to the degree of depravity in the regime. They may involve: demilitarization and disarmament; police and judicial re-training; human rights education; and even deep structural transformation towards a minimally just society governed by a legitimate regime. This is, obviously, the most controversial aspect of jus post bellum.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/

Specifically the continued imposition of the Israeli blockade of Gaza may be considered in violation of rule 3 which is enshrined in international law as the ban on collective punishment.

Ultimately the winner of this conflict may be settled in the courts.
 
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  • #71


Art said:
The 6th requirement of Jus Ad Bellum deals specifically with the issue of proportionality. This is defined in the Stanford Encyclopaedia as http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/ Note the emphasis on the Universiality element. The good of your own citizens has to be weighed against the likely harm to your enemy's citizens resulting from a proposed war. The high civilian death toll in Gaza including over 400 children raises the question was this requirement fulfilled?

Lets assume that a citizen from a state called Gaza walks into Tel Aviv. He is surrounded by 100 kids. Israeli know that they can't kill him without killing the 100 kids. He starts shooting Israeli citizens. Are you saying that Israel can't take him out until he has killed 100 Israeli citizens?
 
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  • #72


russ_watters said:
"No one wins in war" is a naive platitude and certainly not generally true.

In the Gaza war, it is too soon to tell who is going to win. Hamas is in it for concessions from Israel about their borders, so if you see them in the cease-fire agreement, that's how you know they won. Israel is in it for a halt to the rocket and mortar attacks, so if they stop, Israel won.

the war only fuels an endless vicious cycle of hate and violence that is detrimental to everyone, so in this sense, I think no one wins in this war.

Concrete steps should be taken to dissolve the bad blood and improve tolerance between all parties involved, this should be the 'right' way imo.
 
  • #73


Alfi said:
If they have chosen war as their solution , then yes! They ( the leaders ) are incompetent.

EVO said:
I agree, Hamas is incompetant. They are the ones that have chosen war by attacking Israel. Israel is completely blameless in this.
It's rather unbelievable to me that anyone here can point the finger of blame at anything but Hamas. Sorry,

Actually EVO, we do not agree. The word leaders, is pluralized to indicate that both sides have leaders that are incompetent.
It is not unbelievable to me that many people can and do point the middle finger of blame at both sides in this conflict.
Sorry.

To me, an example of a 'war' that was won, is the cold war between the US and the USSR.
It was won by the eventual breakdown of one side due to spending ridiculous amounts of money trying to maintain an arms race.
 
  • #74


Ivan Seeking said:
Not only naive, but false. Did you just make this up?


http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007global_demil/SessionIIA/1410Garner.pdf

It does make it easier to understand his biased mentality though, when he is unaware of the basics facts on the ground. I mean turn on the news any day of the night and you can see phosphorous rounds being used to illuminate the battlefield.
 
  • #75


kyleb said:
I suggest we persuade Israel into accepting Palestinians rights under international law, though funding cuts, and though economic sanctions if that is what it takes, ...
Blah blah blah. What about the rockets? Who's going to stop the rockets?
 
  • #76


Ivan Seeking said:
Not only naive, but false. Did you just make this up?
Sorry, I guess I should have said "Israel doesn't have any white phoshporus bombs". I didn't realize anyone still did. Israel used artillery shells. And yes, the distinction matters. When you use the word "bomb", you imply that the device is used to cause damage via explosion, as the primary definition of the word says.
The Dagda said:
It does make it easier to understand his biased mentality though, when he is unaware of the basics facts on the ground. I mean turn on the news any day of the night and you can see phosphorous rounds being used to illuminate the battlefield.
If you had read my entire post, you would see that I acknowledge that they are used: but that's' not the point. The point is that they are not used for the intent of harming civilians or causing fires and they are not illegal for their designed purpose.

Quibbling over wording aside, the logic is not difficult to follow here, guys. A claim was made that Israel is violating international law by using white phosphorus. That claim is demonstrably false.
 
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  • #77


Hurkyl said:
Blah blah blah. What about the rockets? Who's going to stop the rockets?
They'll magically stop on their own, of course. Doesn't it make perfect sense that after getting Israel weakened, that Hamas will suddenly decide they don't want to destory Israel and stop fighting? :rolleyes:
 
  • #78


turbo-1 said:
There is not a single part of that little strip of land that is not a "civilian area".
So what? Hamas could:

1. Choose to fight in Israel instead of Gaza.
2. Choose not to fight.

The choice to fight and to bring the fight to civilians on both sides is Hamas's alone.

Again, this is a very simple logical conundrum that Hamas faces. They were in a cease fire over the summer. A cease fire is a bad thing for them, because if fighting just plain stops, Israel's goals are met and Hamas's goals are not. And I don't mean the borders: if there was complete peace, Israel would open them - there'd be no reason not to. I mean the existence of Israel and the land the Palestinian state has are both unacceptable to Hamas. Every day that Israel continues to exist on holy land is a slap in the face to them. So they must keep fighting.
 
  • #79


devil-fire said:
I've been wondering where these people are expected to go when they get a phone call that their houses are about to be blown up...
Seems pretty obvious to me: anywhere but there.
 
  • #80


Evo said:
Israel is completely blameless in this.
Completely blameless?

So you disagree with Russ on this...
Russ_watters said:
siddharth said:
While the blame game can go on forever, I hope you realize that Israel isn't entirely innocent in trying to maintain peace.
I realize they are not.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2028128&postcount=65
 
  • #81


Phrak said:
I wouldn't call Hamas or it's members incompetent without first knowing their intent, which, more often as not boils down to power and enrichment of it's members at the greater expense of others. The embargo acts against these basic motivators.

Surely it's not a military win, they have in mind, but something else. They have an embargo they should wish to end in order to obtain a weapons supply. If they can't do this, they will loose the support of their international allies to another political party. They are also fighting a propaganda war.

I can think of only two possible motives:
1) to break the Egyptian embargo through influencing Egyptian public opinion
2) to obtain UN sanctions against Israel to end the Israeli blockage

Hamas don't have a lot of cards to play in either, or any other endeavor, but to fire missiles over the boarder, then cry foul when Palestinian civilians get killed in the backlash. They have plenty of shills, worldwide, to help spread the word as you can obviously see. But sacrificing civilians has always been a crowd pleaser to the Palestinians in this asymmetrical warfare, garnering wide international sympathy and armfuls of UN sactions against Israel, so it shouldn’t be underrated.
I argued essentially that in a previous thread. Hamas is doing what it can to get what it wants. In that sense, they are acting competently to achieve their goals.

Please don't misunderstand: that doesn't make their goals or actions morally right.
 
  • #82


Gokul43201 said:
Completely blameless?

So you disagree with Russ on this...

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2028128&postcount=65
She is free to disagree with me Gokul. I won't get mad at her. :mad:

When I say that Israel is not completely blameless, I mean simply that their actions have not been perfect and that is simply because no actions can be in war. They've made mistakes, bombed targets they probably shouldn't have, miscalculated international reactions, etc.

So don't get me wrong: Israel has by far the moral high ground here, without question. But no one is perfect. And yeah, I realize that doesn't make for a strong statement, I just don't like absolutes in situations that are so messy.
 
  • #83


Oerg said:
the war only fuels an endless vicious cycle of hate and violence that is detrimental to everyone, so in this sense, I think no one wins in this war.

Concrete steps should be taken to dissolve the bad blood and improve tolerance between all parties involved, this should be the 'right' way imo.
While I basically agree, the problem is that what you are suggesting doesn't represent the goals/interests of either side. That's really why international peace efforts haven't made any progress. The international community just wants peace - addressing the goals of the two sides is secondary to them. That's the wrong way to approach the situation. A lasting peace can only be attained by addressing the goals of the two sides...and, of course, if the goals are mutually exclusive and there is no willingness to compromise, then there quite simply can be no peace and the international community should just stop trying. IMO, these little cease-fires do more to prolong the conflict than a quick and violent war would. (That's part of the point of the Starship Troopers quote).
 
  • #84


russ_watters said:
She is free to disagree with me Gokul. I won't get mad at her. :mad:
I was merely hoping to underscore how far Evo's assessment goes.

So don't get me wrong: Israel has by far the moral high ground here, without question. But no one is perfect.
I haven't ever said that Hamas has the moral edge over Israel or that the two sides are comparable from a moral standpoint. But saying that Israel is behaving more responsibly than a terrorist group is hardly a glowing endorsement. I think Israel had very few options but to take on Hamas militarily in Gaza, given what had been happening there. But I don't think they've been completely blameless in their execution of it. Nor do I think think they are completely blameless in the provocation of this war itself. For instance, I believe the blockade preventing access to health-care for critically ill children in Gaza was a bad move, even from a purely PR point of view.
 
  • #85


Gokul43201 said:
Completely blameless?

So you disagree with Russ on this...

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2028128&postcount=65

Does anyone agree with Russ and Evo? genuinely I think they live on another world, because their shameless advocacy of Israel's disregard for the rules of war are mystifying. All I can guess is they've been brainwashed by the media?
 
  • #86


Oerg said:
the war only fuels an endless vicious cycle of hate and violence that is detrimental to everyone, so in this sense, I think no one wins in this war.

Totally agree.

And, I don't know why people totally disregard the human loss. It is a loss for everyone who lost his/her families, left impaired or disabled, or lost the opportunities for better life.

Concrete steps should be taken to dissolve the bad blood and improve tolerance between all parties involved, this should be the 'right' way imo.

I don't see any solutions unless:
1) Hamas is toppled over by some American culprit who is happy with whatever they have right now - looks possible.
2) Israel is accepted by all of ME (no support for Hamas) - looks pretty impossible.
I don't know much about the history. But I think UN/UK should have put little more thought back in 1948.
3) Either Israel or ME disappears - not going to happen.
 
  • #87


Evo said:
I agree, Hamas is incompetant. They are the ones that have chosen war by attacking Israel.

Hamas has a problem in that they have two goals. One is, as majority party in the PA, is statehood for Palestine. Another is, as a political movement, the destruction of Israel. (I will consider the calls for worldwide genocide of Jews as simply the rantings of their wackier members and not take that seriously).

If they were to stop all attacks, and adopt a stance of purely non-violent resistance, how long do you think the world could deny them statehood? Sure, there would be a wait and see period - but as days stretch to weeks and weeks to months, all without attacks, it would take all of the wind out of the sails of anyone who would argue that Israeli occupation is necessary for Israeli security.

The problem with this is that this conflicts with their second goal.
 
  • #88


dear evo ..

Originally Posted by ALYAZAN
what about the huge number of innocent victims ?? .

That is solely the fault of Hamas, something that for some reason you fail to see. Hamas attacked Israel. It is ridiculous to think that Israel would not retailiate. And saying "oh, but innocent people got killed". Name a war in which innocent people did not get kiled. Then the nonsnese "oh, But Israel killed more palestinians than Hamas killed Israelis. So? This surprises anyone? Show me where is says that waring countries must be equal in casualties or damage. This is beyond naive, it's ridiculous

i thought that hamas is the one who is bombing shelling, using phosphorus attacking schools, hospitals and journalists .. and israel is the one fighting to defend Gaza
 
  • #89
Sderot

ALYAZAN said:
i thought that hamas is the one who is bombing shelling, using phosphorus attacking schools, hospitals and journalists .. and israel is the one fighting to defend Gaza

No, Israel is the one fighting to defend Sderot, and Hamas is the one who is bombing civilians and schools in Sderot, and has been for 8 years.
 
  • #90


dear everybody

peace be upon u

i guess that it clear that israel after 22 days of using as much power as it could failed in every thing ... rockets wasn't stopped .. gaza still standing though of every ugly deed happened .. hamas wasn't broken .. even palestinian people got more liking it .. hundreds of tanks wasn't able to do nothing but killing children and women ..

in my opinion ..

from the huminitarian view both failed and especially israel ..

will if we wrapped the camara on the military side .. hamas won .. in comparison to upnormal quantity and type of weapons used in this war .. who would stand in front of such an army ?? in addition to that ... a lot of crimes israel did trying to terify the people but in vain ..

i found this site on the net .. it wasn't able to be described by words ..

all the troops not just hamas did that .. and was able to stop that army

but .. the civilian are greatest loss .. and the whole war is meaningless ..
 
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  • #91


russ_watters said:
Seems pretty obvious to me: anywhere but there.

seems pretty obvious: that proves that israel is targeting civilian .. in name of what israel is asking people to leave their own homes ??

and ain't it prohibited to destroy civilian houses that are used by their owners to live in in war time ?? ain't it a war crime ??
 
  • #92
destroying civilian houses

ALYAZAN said:
and ain't it prohibited to destroy civilian houses that are used by their owners to live in in war time ?? ain't it a war crime ??

No, not if they are next to a military site.

Artillery isn't completely accurate, and any house near a military target is likely to be hit.

For this reason, civilians living near a military target usually leave anyway.

Israel isn't obliged to warn them to leave, so the warnings show that Israel is doing more than is necessary under international law to avoid civilian casualties (unlike Hamas, which is deliberately turning civilian streets in Gaza into target areas, and which tries to kill as many civilians possible with its own rockets).
seems pretty obvious: that proves that israel is targeting civilian .. in name of what israel is asking people to leave their own homes ??

In the name of humanity. :approve:
 
  • #93


bleh
 
  • #94


ALYAZAN said:
but my question is : who u think did really win this battle ??

Terrorists won, because they put Israel creating more terrorists. They are "reproducing", so to speak.
 
  • #95


I remember this thread used to be about a specific armed conflict, and the issues of civilian casualties in war. How (and why) did it turn into a soapbox for people to push their opinion on the entirety of Israeli history?
 
  • #96


Hurkyl said:
I remember this thread used to be about a specific armed conflict, and the issues of civilian casualties in war. How (and why) did it turn into a soapbox for people to push their opinion on the entirety of Israeli history?
Both sides hold on to the past to justify current actions. The conflicts in the middle east are unresolved issues from that last 3 millenia or so - not that they will be resolved in a thread on any internet site.
 
  • #97


peace upo u

dear everybody

i have no enough time to read all these discussions .. but .. i guess that there is no need to try to convice anybody of what the fact is .. anybody who would not believe the shining and obvious fact on land .. will ever be conviced at all .. what ever was your effort .. and on the other hand the whole world now can see the truth of what this war was about ..

i' not going to discuss who won and who lost .. it's meaningless to discuss such an issue while >1300 innocent civilian were killed >40% of them are women and children .. >5300 were wonded >50% of them are women and children

as aljazeera says .. and the numbers here is alost the same to what western sources published about numberd of victims

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200911915726719317.html

and this is one of the last pix I've seen .. it's very painfull that i can't thin of who won !
http://www.jamaa.cc/art20039.html
what kind of victory are we talking about ?? victory of killing people .. i believe that hamas is not responsible for all that .. from the very beginning .. hamas has been estabished to resist the israeli occupation .. so obviously israel is the cause and hamas is a reason of the israeli occupation .. if there were no israel there would never be hamas .. as simple as this

my opinion is that no political side won .. at all .. o military comparison between israeli army (tanks .. fighters .. weapons .. cutting edge technologies .. and nubmer of fighters) and those people .. have no single tank .. even the weapon they are using in front of the 4th largest army in the world are very simple and old ..

i'l never discuss in who won .. the ony one who won is the blood !

my word is just this .. may God help us see the right and help us follow it .. and may peace be upon the world

my thanks and prayers to everybody ..
 
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  • #98


ALYAZAN said:
.. hamas has been estabished to resist the israeli occupation .. so obviously israel is the cause and hamas is a reason of the israeli occupation .. if there were no israel there would never be hamas ..

Damn straight! If all those pesky Jews would just lay down and die we wouldn't be in this mess. It's all their fault.

(sheesh!)
 
  • #99


Alayazan, you keep repeating the same thing over and over. You make it sound like Israel made an unprovoked attack on Gaza, when this simply is not the case.

And for the last time. There will be no more threads with the intention to point blame. This subject does nothing but antagonize people on both sides of this issue and accomplishes nothing.
 

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