Why are 3 states sufficient to describe a statistical ensemble?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the sufficiency of three state variables to describe statistical ensembles in statistical physics, specifically focusing on microcanonical, canonical, and grandcanonical ensembles. Participants explore the implications of using three variables and the relationships between different free energies through Legendre transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why only three variables (like E, V, N) are necessary to describe ensembles, suggesting there may be a deeper meaning behind this limitation.
  • Another participant proposes that the three variables correspond to increases in system energy through heating, PV work, and adding material, indicating that additional variables could arise from other energy contributions.
  • A participant discusses the transformation of free energies and their relationship to system state variables, questioning how these transformations relate to Legendre transforms.
  • It is noted that the reduction in Gibbs free energy is a driving force for processes at constant temperature and pressure, with an example of an electrochemical cell illustrating the concept of energy capture.
  • One participant elaborates on the use of Legendre transforms to express energy in terms of controllable variables, suggesting that additional variables like stress could be incorporated into the potential definitions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the sufficiency of three variables and the implications of Legendre transformations, indicating that multiple competing views remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants discuss the potential for additional variables if other forms of energy input are considered, suggesting that the current framework may have limitations based on the chosen state variables.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in statistical physics, thermodynamics, and the mathematical foundations of physical systems may find this discussion relevant.

blue2script
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Hello!

I have a question arising from my course in statistical physics: Describing microcanonical, canonical and grandcanonical ensemble you take three variables (like E,V,N for microncanonical) and get the "rest" from derivatives of the free energies. Is there a deeper meaning why there are only three variables to be fixed and not four or five?

Another question: Is there any deeper meaning that all free energies transform into each other by Legendre transformations? There should be. Any references on these topics that could be helpful?

Thanks for all answers and help!

Blue2script
 
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There are three variables because you are considering increases in system energy via (1) heating, (2) PV work, and (3) adding material. If you also considered adding energy through forming a surface ([itex]\gamma\,dA[/itex]), applying stress ([itex]\sigma V\,d\epsilon[/itex]), etc., you would use more variables (in these cases, [itex]A[/itex] and [tex]\inline{\epsilon}[/tex]) and you'd have a wider number of possible ensembles to try.

As for the potentials question, we always want to use a potential that makes calculations easiest. We know that energy U is minimized for all spontaneous processes, so that [itex]dU=T\,dS-P\,dV+\mu\,dN=0[/itex]. Since it's easy to perform experiments at constant pressure and temperature, let's transform to [itex]G=U-TS+PV[/itex] so that now [itex]dG=-S\,dT+V\,dP+\mu\,dN=0[/itex]. From this we get, for example, that when two phases are in equilibrium the chemical potential [itex]\mu_i[/itex] of material [itex]i[/itex] must be equal in each phase.

A excellent reference is Callen's Thermodynamics.
 
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Hi Mapes,

thanks for your answer, it really makes sense! On the second question: As far as I knew are the free energies sort of the energies we can gain when we variate the systems state variables. E.g. G(T,P,N), change T and the difference of both Gibbs energies is the energy you can get out of the system. Is that right? And how is that related to Legendre transforms?

Again, thanks for your answers!

Blue2script
 
The reduction in the Gibbs free energy G is the driving force on any process at constant T and P. We can indeed completely capture and store this [itex]\Delta G[/itex] as energy by using a non-heat engine, for example an electrochemical cell, whose efficiency can in theory reach 100% (recall that the efficiency of a heat engine must always be less than 100%).

The substitutions [itex]G=U-TS+PV[/itex], [itex]F=U-TS[/itex], [itex]H=U+PV[/itex], etc. are the Legendre transforms. Their primary use is to transform the original [itex]dU=T\,dS-P\,dV+\mu\,dN+\dots[/itex] into expressions of variables we can control, like T and P. We can extend this idea: if we need to incorporate stress and strain, then we have

[tex]dU=T\,dS-P\,dV+\sigma V\,d\epsilon[/tex]

where I have assumed a closed system so that [itex]dN=0[/itex]. Now let's say I can control temperature, pressure, and stress. Then I define a potential [itex]\phi[/itex] using the Legendre transform

[tex]\phi=U-TS+PV-\sigma V\epsilon[/tex]

which is now minimized when the system is at equilibrium: [itex]d\phi=-S\,dt+V\,dP-\epsilon \,d(\sigma V)=0[/itex]. (If you are familiar with the Clausius-Clapeyron relation, you can probably see how I might change the temperature of a phase transformation by altering the stress on a solid, rather than the pressure which is usually considered. We can calculate things like that with our new potential [itex]\phi[/itex].)
 
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