Why are there so many posts about

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  • #26
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If I picked a race and said that people of that race were more complex than others, I would be a horrible racist.
If someone lead you to believe this was true they've been indoctrinating you into a very bad version of Political Correctness. That particular observation should not be construed as racist. It's a neutral fact that some peoples are more complex than others. The Chinese are more socially complex than Americans, for example. So are the Japanese, for that matter. Asians are over-represented in academic excellence. Jews are over-represented among professional musicians and in the film industry. There's a difference between saying a race is categorically bad as a race, and merely saying that race is different than your own race. If you take political correctness too far a person won't be able to assert that Chinese people mostly speak Chinese without having said something criminal.
 
  • #27
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I asked my wife as a sanity check. Her opinion: (1) It's funny. (2) She doesn't give a hoot if men perceive women as overly complex. (3) It doesn't demean women. It demeans men.
I tried posting it on my Facebook, without comment, to see what would happen. Three girls "liked" it. No guys responded.
 
  • #28
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If someone lead you to believe this was true they've been indoctrinating you into a very bad version of Political Correctness. That particular observation should not be construed as racist. It's a neutral fact that some peoples are more complex than others. The Chinese are more socially complex than Americans, for example. So are the Japanese, for that matter. Asians are over-represented in academic excellence. Jews are over-represented among professional musicians and in the film industry. There's a difference between saying a race is categorically bad as a race, and merely saying that race is different than your own race. If you take political correctness too far a person won't be able to assert that Chinese people mostly speak Chinese without having said something criminal.
You are conflating race and culture here. Moreover, while there can be some truth to stereotypes, people should be careful when appealing to them in public fora, as intent is not always clear, and reinforcing stereotypes can easily play into the hands of genuine bigots.
 
  • #29
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You are conflating race and culture here.
True.
Moreover, while there can be some truth to stereotypes, people should be careful when appealing to them in public fora, as intent is not always clear, and reinforcing stereotypes can easily play into the hands of genuine bigots.
Sounds like the slope is slippery.

There's a difference between a racial stereotype and a neutral fact about a culture. One shouldn't conflate the latter with the former in a misguided effort to be PC.

I object to 20Tauri jumping on Jimmy Snyder in her ignorance of him. He's happily married to a Chinese wife, is the loving father of an autistic son, and is not a sexist. No guy demonstrating authentically misogynistic tendencies has ever lasted very long here. New people should take the forum pulse better before they start policing it, jumping on well respected, longtime members. Abusive, insulting, racist, sexist remarks are already clearly prohibited here. If you see something, push the report button. We don't need newbies showing up deciding the forum needs PC maintenance.

As DH pointed out, the joke picture actually suggests men are simpletons more than it suggests women are overly complicated. Jimmy nudged it in the other direction when he posted it, but seeing that as sexist is a gratuitously harsh interpretation. It was teasing, pure and simple:

Teasing (sfottò) is an ancient form of simple buffoonery, a form of comedy without satire's subversive edge. Teasing includes light and affectionate parody, good-humoured mockery, simple one-dimensional poking fun, benign spoofs. Teasing typically consists in a impersonation of someone monkeying around with his exterior attributes, tics, physical blemishes, voice and mannerisms, quirks, way of dressing and walking, the phrases he typically repeats. By contrast, teasing never touches on the core issue, never makes a serious criticism judging the target with irony; it never harms the target's conduct, ideology and position of power; it never undermines the perception of his morality and cultural dimension.[23][24] Sfottò directed towards a powerful individual, makes him appear more human and draws sympathy towards him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire

If a person is not OK with a certain amount of teasing I think they should post elsewhere. Those who chose not to see the difference between teasing and authentic bad will/cruelty in a joke are, I suspect, either jockeying for position as top moral entrepreneur or are under the sway of such people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_entrepreneur
 
  • #30
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I'm not accusing anyone of being sexist, and I'm not making a slippery slope argument. My point is that jokes that play on stereotypical differences between groups play directly into the hands of people with a vested interest in magnifying the apparent differences, when they are made in certain contexts.

Making a joke that can be interpreted as sexist doesn't make someone a sexist, for example, but people who are not sexist should be aware that jokes in a public space where many people will not be familiar with the joker's background can easily be misinterpreted. That's it really.
 
  • #31
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I'm not accusing anyone of being sexist, and I'm not making a slippery slope argument. My point is that jokes that play on stereotypical differences between groups play directly into the hands of people with a vested interest in magnifying the apparent differences, when they are made in certain contexts.

Making a joke that can be interpreted as sexist doesn't make someone a sexist, for example, but people who are not sexist should be aware that jokes in a public space where many people will not be familiar with the joker's background can easily be misinterpreted. That's it really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_entrepreneur
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic
 
  • #32
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Do you have anything of substance to say or shall we leave it here?
 
  • #33
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My point is that jokes that play on stereotypical differences between groups play directly into the hands of people with a vested interest in magnifying the apparent differences, when they are made in certain contexts.

Making a joke that can be interpreted as sexist doesn't make someone a sexist, for example, but people who are not sexist should be aware that jokes in a public space where many people will not be familiar with the joker's background can easily be misinterpreted. That's it really.
I thought my point was pretty clear. You are playing moral entrepreneur and trying to incite a little moral panic here: 'you have to watch what you say or you may be contributing to bigotry'. Your reward if you succeed: you get to dictate people's behavior. PF, though, suffers from an increase in general tension and bigotry is not affected.

Get a clue about teasing, banter, trash talk, etc. so you at least recognize it for what it is when you see it. Try the movie "Grand Torino". The Clint Eastwood character gives remedial lessons.
 
  • #34
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I'm not accusing anyone of being sexist, and I'm not making a slippery slope argument. My point is that jokes that play on stereotypical differences between groups play directly into the hands of people with a vested interest in magnifying the apparent differences, when they are made in certain contexts.

Making a joke that can be interpreted as sexist doesn't make someone a sexist, for example, but people who are not sexist should be aware that jokes in a public space where many people will not be familiar with the joker's background can easily be misinterpreted. That's it really.
IMO you're being a bit uptight
 
  • #35
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I thought my point was pretty clear. You are playing moral entrepreneur and trying to incite a little moral panic here: 'you have to watch what you say or you may be contributing to bigotry'. Your reward if you succeed: you get to dictate people's behavior. PF, though, suffers from an increase in general tension and bigotry is not affected.

Get a clue about teasing, banter, trash talk, etc. so you at least recognize it for what it is when you see it. Try the movie "Grand Torino". The Clint Eastwood character gives remedial lessons.
Gran Torino, really? Clearly I have locked horns with a master debater and must retreat before I'm further embarrassed.
 
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  • #36
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Gran Turino, really?
Really. He gives remedial lessons. If you find that ridiculously beneath you it would confirm you're not clueless and are, in fact, just trying your hand at moral entrepreneurship.
Clearly I have locked horns with a master debater and must retreat before I'm further embarrassed.
Cut out trying to make a niche for yourself by inventing problems for you to police.
 
  • #37
DaveC426913
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Do you have anything of substance to say or shall we leave it here?
I think everything's been said. The pic is a bit of humour. And can certainly be interpreted as sexist and is definitely a generalization. (Though frankly, it had not occurred to me until Zooby pointed it out, that the sexism works both ways. That shows a bias in me.)
 
  • #38
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I think everything's been said. The pic is a bit of humour. And can certainly be interpreted as sexist and is definitely a generalization. (Though frankly, it had not occurred to me until Zooby pointed it out, that the sexism works both ways. That shows a bias in me.)
I agree.
 
  • #39
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To make this more interesting let's extend it to a different species and since I've had a great deal of experience with equines who have no agenda I'll share their gender differences.

Equine males are in general more friendly, have a much more highly developed sense of humor, are sweeter and more outgoing than the females. They also tend to be sillier and love to show off. (There are exceptions of course.) The females are more standoffish, harder to impress, and you'd better be worthy of their royal highnesses. There's a saying "Tell a gelding, ask a stallion and discuss things with a mare."

The males live in a bachelor herd unless they are lucky enough to find at least one female they can hold onto and keep the other males away from.

The boys play harder with each other, will take chunks out of each other, are very protective of their girls. The girls have a very very strict hierarchy but they don't generally cause injury - they threaten each other and will chase and bite one on the butt who is disrespectful.

So what they have is males who are the protectors from outside danger and the females who run things, know where the food is, the water, the dangerous places and who pass this information on by way of their female offspring.

Human males are also hardwired to protect their women, entertain them and keep them laughing. The females tend to connect a bit better in person in groups, share knowledge and problem solve in groups many times, as well as individually, and help each other find solutions to problems. Yes males do this at golf clubs etc. but aren't as likely to get as deeply involved as the women will.

The two genders work particularly well together to problem solve and keep everyone safe and happy. The variability within the genders is much higher than that between the genders so whatever the differences between genders, one can always find someone who differs from the norm in whatever direction one desires.

There are many other fascinating differences and similarities among and between the genders but first and foremost the INDIVIDUAL and individual characteristics must be considered and those who are most successful in having relationships with the opposite gender do both understand and LIKE both the similarities and differences between them and their person of interest.

This forum has on it some of the most fascinating and tolerant people I've ever encountered. Most of the men do like, respect and understand women because they see them as individuals, not a gender. The number of women in other fields has increased tremendously and I have no doubt those in physics and engineering will do so also.

So those of you who are annoyed by gender bias are "preaching to the choir" on this forum.

Regarding women trying to chase guys off and guys chasing women, true to a degree but more and more women are seeking out men with the characteristics they like (we have family members of both genders on major dating forums) and initiating contact with them and the guys are waiting to let the ladies make the first move. A bit like letting the lady smile at you before you initiate conversation as it was done in the "old days".

One more note - many people prefer to post gender neutral so I'd be willing to bet there are more women than you think on this forum.
 
  • #40
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I'm maintaining that you can't make generalizations about how simple or complex any person is based simply on biological sex.
It was a generalization for men, about women. If you look at the picture with your biased upside down you'll see men are simpletons.

Since you are not addressing this, I gotta say your defense is biased towards women.

The image is neutral, your emotional reaction isn't.

(opps, guess I was pointing out the obvious)
 

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