Why Do Airplane Wings Have a Natural Forward Pitching Moment?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the natural forward pitching moment of airplane wings, exploring its implications for stability and design. Participants examine the relationship between the center of gravity (CG), center of pressure (CP), and aerodynamic center, as well as the effects of different wing shapes on pitching moments. The conversation includes theoretical aspects, practical design considerations, and stability issues related to various aircraft configurations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that an airplane's wing has a forward-pitching moment that tends to rotate the plane nose down, questioning whether this moment is nonzero for any angle of attack.
  • It is suggested that the pitching moment is influenced by the wing section, with different designs yielding varying pitching moments, particularly noting that non-swept tailless aircraft may have a positive pitching moment.
  • Concerns are raised about the stability implications of having CG and CP at the same point, with some arguing that this could lead to instability and potential flutter.
  • Participants discuss the role of the horizontal stabilizer in providing stability by generating a correcting moment, which is necessary for stable flight.
  • Questions arise regarding the aerodynamic center and its significance, with some participants noting that it is a point where the aerodynamic moment remains constant across different angles of attack, despite the movement of the CP.
  • Clarifications are made about the nature of aerodynamic forces acting on a wing, emphasizing that lift and drag can be resolved into components that affect the pitching moment.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the nature of pitching moments and stability. While there is some consensus on the role of the horizontal stabilizer and the effects of wing design, multiple competing views exist about the implications of CG and CP positioning and the characteristics of different wing types.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion is limited by the complexity of aerodynamic forces and the specific definitions of terms like aerodynamic center, center of pressure, and center of gravity. The relationship between these concepts and their implications for stability and design remains nuanced and unresolved.

  • #31
Thanks CWatters. That is awesome and impressive. I am trying to make a RC model high-lifting airplane (that can carry a lot of weight, given a certain take off speed, etc.). I see how I can determine the minimum take off speed given a certain wing areas, and motor power. I wonder how quickly the plane will reach that speed. That will determine the minimum takeoff distance (runway). Do you have any insight in that?

Just to make sure, you mention that the CG of the entire airplane should be placed at distance, from the leading edge of the wing, that is 25%-33% the mean chord line (starting from the trailing edge of the wing 25-33$ of the chord backward).

Thanks and happy Easter!
 
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  • #32
CWatters said:
I flew fast electric powered competition gliders some years ago

Wow, that sounds like fun. But you don't say if the gliders were remote control models, or full size with you on board as pilot.
 
  • #33
They were F5B class RC models. I also flew full size gliders for awhile but not long enough to go cross country, all local flying.

There are quite a few videos of F5B models on YouTube. An example...

 
Last edited:
  • #34
fog37 said:
Thanks CWatters. That is awesome and impressive. I am trying to make a RC model high-lifting airplane (that can carry a lot of weight, given a certain take off speed, etc.). I see how I can determine the minimum take off speed given a certain wing areas, and motor power. I wonder how quickly the plane will reach that speed. That will determine the minimum takeoff distance (runway). Do you have any insight in that?

For that sort of aircraft you want a thick wing section with quite a bit of camber and possibly flaps. It's tricky working out how fast it will accelerate to that speed. More power the better. A fine pitch prop will also accelerate faster but don't go too fine or the top speed will be too slow.

Just to make sure, you mention that the CG of the entire airplane should be placed at distance, from the leading edge of the wing, that is 25%-33% the mean chord line (starting from the trailing edge of the wing 25-33$ of the chord backward).

Thanks and happy Easter!

Yes 25-33% of the chord back from the leading edge.
 
  • #35
fog37 said:
I guess the aerodynamic moment is due to the lift force, always applied at the CP.
This is wrong and I don't know if it is clearly corrected later. There is a torque on the wing that has nothing to do with the location of the wing versus the CP. In creating lift, airflow is diverted down. That produces a twisting torque on the wing which is different from the leverage arm that the lift is applied to. Both must be accounted for.
 

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