Why do electrons repel? - A basic question about the behavior of particles

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    Electrons Repel
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the fundamental question of why electrons repel each other and the nature of electrostatic forces. Participants explore concepts related to charge, mass, and the underlying mechanisms of particle interactions, touching on theoretical and conceptual aspects of physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if electrons could travel faster than light, they would not repel each other, raising questions about the nature of their repulsion.
  • Another participant explains that like charges repel due to a force described by Coulomb's law, which is influenced by the magnitude of the charges and the distance between them.
  • A participant questions the possibility of determining if a particle is charged without using electromagnetic methods, prompting further discussion on observation methods.
  • Concerns are raised about the fundamental nature of charge and what causes electrostatic forces, with one participant stating that the search for underlying causes is ongoing and complex.
  • Some participants discuss the composition of protons and neutrons, mentioning quarks and their roles in charge, while noting their own limitations in understanding these concepts.
  • One participant asserts that spin and charge are unrelated, emphasizing the complexity of explaining why particles behave as they do.
  • Another participant expresses frustration over the lack of definitive answers regarding the causes of charge and mass, indicating that these are active areas of research.
  • There is a suggestion that the discussion should remain focused on established scientific principles rather than speculative theories.
  • Some participants share misconceptions about photons and their speed, leading to clarifications about the nature of light and its interactions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of charge and electrostatic forces, with no consensus reached on the fundamental causes behind these phenomena. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of current understanding in physics, particularly regarding the fundamental nature of charge and mass. The discussion reflects ongoing debates in the field and the complexity of explaining particle behavior.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring foundational concepts in physics, particularly in the areas of particle physics, electrostatics, and the nature of forces and charges.

superweirdo
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You know, these are basic questions, I never wondered why about there. Till a friend of mine told me that the speed of the info. for electrons that they are suppose to repel from each other is the speed of light, thus if two electrons travel faster than light, they wouldn't repel. But why? What causes them to repel from each other? What causes proton and electron to attract each other?
 
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Since electrons have mass, can never travel at the speed of light.

Two like charged particles will repel against each other due to a repulsive (or attractive, in the case of oppositely charged particles) force which is exerted between the two.

The force exerted on a particle with charge q_1 by another particle with charge q_2 at a radial distance r is given as,
F = (k * q_1 * q_2) / r^2
Where k is the Coulomb force constant 8.99 E9 Nm^2/C^2.
[Notice how similar this equation is to Newton’s law of universal gravitation...however electrostatic forces are much stronger than gravitational forces and can act both as attractive and repulsive forces, whereas gravity only attracts]

The resulting force is thus directly proportional to the magnitude of the charges on the two particles, and inversely proportional to the square of the inverse of the distance between each particles center of charge.
The force will cause the particle (electron) to accelerate.

The rest mass of an electron is: 9.10938188(72) E-31 kg
The charge on the electron is: 1.602176462(63) E-19 C
 
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say if you had an isolated particle and just by observing it (if that's possible) you had to tell whether it was charged or not, without using electromagnitism or anything like that. Can that be done?
 
Ok, you told me that repulsion is caused by electrostatic force. What causes electrostatic force? The Charge? What causes the charge? Why are electrons negative and protons are positive?
 
I believe it has something to do with subatomic particles, which have certain spin values based on quantum mechanics like stuff. The spin effects charge in some way.

And that's where my ignorance starts...or actually my ignorance started with this post..
 
There are a whole slew of sub-sub atomic particles out there.
A proton is said to be made up of two "up" quarks and a "down" quark, giving it a positive charge, where as a neutrally charged neutron is made of two "down" quarks and an "up".
Electrons are a different category I believe, not made of quarks.

This part of it is defiantly not in my expertise, I can't do too well with why the particles have the size or magnitude of charge that they do.
This type of question should probably be in a different category than "chemistry".
 
Actually, spin and charge and completely different and unconnected.

superweirdo said:
Ok, you told me that repulsion is caused by electrostatic force. What causes electrostatic force? The Charge? What causes the charge?
Sorry, but that's the last stop on the line. Ask again after a decade or two, and maybe there will be something to add.

Recognize that one can not indefinitely ask "why" and expect answers. The point of science is to be able to explain varied and complex phenomena based on a small set of fundamental truths. Perhaps, some day it can all be reduced to a single concept (there's a large number of scientists that challenge this point of view), but at that point, you could still ask "why" and have no answer.

As for the force (or field) traveling at the speed of light, it's almost the other way round. Light, being a disturbance in the electromagnetic field travels at the speed of propagation of the field.

say if you had an isolated particle and just by observing it (if that's possible) you had to tell whether it was charged or not, without using electromagnitism or anything like that. Can that be done?
How do you intend to go about "observing it"? The way we usually observe something is by bouncing light off of it and interpreting the information contained in this light. It doesn't always have to be light that gets used (you could use electrons, neutrons or even tennis balls, depending on what you want to observe), but the idea here is that an observation requires an interaction. So, it becomes meaningless to speak of observation "without using...anything".
 
so what you are telling me is that there is not a single person on Earth who knows what causes electrostatic force and what causes the charges in the subatomic particles?!
 
superweirdo said:
so what you are telling me is that there is not a single person on Earth who knows what causes ... the charges in the subatomic particles?!
What causes charge? What causes mass? These are active topics of research, but there is no definitive answer as yet.
 
  • #10
Does anyone here want to take up the challange and share what they think?
 
  • #11
Superweirdo, maybe you're not familiar with the guidelines. This Forum doesn't look too kindly upon offhand speculation. If you want to know something about the currect extent of research in this area, you should start a new thread under the High Energy Physics subforum. If you want people to propose theories over their lunch break, you should ask outside PF.
 
  • #12
I apolozige gokul, i wasn't familiar w/ the guidelinis but thanks to you. Just a random question, not worth creating a thread, I heard that photons travel twice as fast as light, well, when they collide each other, don't they speed up?
 
  • #13
Photons are light, so how can they travel twice as fast as light?
 
  • #14
superweirdo said:
so what you are telling me is that there is not a single person on Earth who knows what causes electrostatic force and what causes the charges in the subatomic particles?!

You are quite correct, in a sense. The search for underlying causes is, so far, a never ending quest. Science DESCRIBES how things behave, and discovers the rules. Sometimes it explains how it one behavior occurs by going a layer deeper. Example: First the rules of planetary motion - planets move in elipses (plus perterbations.). Why? We discovered that an inverse-square attractive field (gravity) caused that behavior. Why does gravity behave that way... Well, Einstein added a deeper layer with spatial curvature. Why does space act like that? Or why do strings and quarks that make up the electron behave that way? At some point, you always say "I don't know - that's just what I've found. Ask God why." And that's always the answer to the last layer we've reached.
 
  • #15
thats what I heard, that particles inside light travel twice as fast as light in order for light to travel at that speed.
 
  • #16
superweirdo said:
thats what I heard, that particles inside light travel twice as fast as light in order for light to travel at that speed.
Please provide a complete citation of the source that describes this.

Besides, this is clearly not what StoneBurner said.
 

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