Why Do Polish Verbs Use Cie and Ci Differently?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the usage of the Polish pronouns "ci" and "cię" in relation to different verbs, specifically in the context of the cases they correspond to in Polish grammar. Participants explore the grammatical rules governing these pronouns and their application in various sentences.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the difference between "kocham cię" and "wybaczam ci," suggesting it may relate to the verbs belonging to different groups.
  • Another participant explains that the case used depends on the verb, with "kocham" requiring the accusative case (biernik) and "wybaczam" requiring the dative case (celownik).
  • There is mention of additional grammatical cases in Polish, including nominative, genitive, and instrumental, but the understanding of these cases remains incomplete among participants.
  • Participants note that both "nie zapomniałem ci" and "nie zapomniałem cię" are correct but convey different meanings, with one being more difficult to translate.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the nuances of the language and the difficulty of learning without a textbook.
  • Discussion includes examples of sentences using "ci" and "cię," with some participants sharing personal experiences related to learning Polish through songs.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the grammatical rules, and while some points are clarified, there remains uncertainty about the broader application of these rules and the nuances of meaning in different contexts.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of Polish grammar, including the presence of exceptions and the historical context that may influence current usage. There is also a recognition that pronouns are inflected like nouns, which adds to the complexity of understanding their use.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in learning Polish, particularly those focusing on grammar and the use of pronouns in different contexts, may find this discussion beneficial.

fluidistic
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Hi,
I don't understand why one says "kocham cie" (I love you) and "wybaczam ci" (I forgive you). I mean, why "cie" in one case and "ci" in the other?
Is it because the verbs are from different groups? What are the rules of using ci and cie?

Dziękuję. :smile:
 
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My theoretical knowledge about Polish grammar is comparable with my knowledge about GR - that is, I know it exists... Don't ask me how I was able to finish primary and secondary school without learning anything on the subject, I am surprised myself.

Whenever verb is followed by noun, noun has to be in the correct case. Which case - depends on the verb. I am not sure if there are any general rules, can be it is just a property of the verb, just like gender is property of the noun. Even if there is some logic behind, it is diluted by many exceptions, which are traces of the language history.

Kocham cię - kochać KOGO? CO? - that is, verb "kocham" is always followed by noun in biernik (accusativus).

Wybaczam ci - wybaczać KOMU? CZEMU? - verb "wybaczać" is always followed by noun in celownik (dativus).

So what you are looking for are not rules for "ci" and "cię", but rules for nouns following verbs.
 
Ah ok, thanks a lot. I must admit I had fun reading your post. :biggrin:

I think I understand the main idea.
So there is at least biernik and celownik. Maybe more cases but I don't know.
So there's at least "ci" (for celownik) and "cię" for (biernik), I do not know if I can encounter another variant of "ci".
I guess I should check out on some website since I have no book. Kind of hard to learn a language without any book.

Anyway if I have other questions I think I'll post them in this forum.
Thanks a lot Borek!

Edit: Let me guess: nie zapomniałem ci. Is that correct?
 
fluidistic said:
Maybe more cases but I don't know.

mianownik - kto? co?
dopełniacz - kogo? czego?
celownik - komu? czemu?
biernik - kogo? co?
narzędnik - z kim? z czym?
miejscownik - o kim? o czym?
wołacz - a little bit different, it doesn't answer simple question.

"Ci", cię" is not a noun, it is pronoun, but pronouns are inflected just like nouns are.

Edit: Let me guess: nie zapomniałem ci. Is that correct?

Can of worms :smile:

Both forms - "nie zapomniałem ci" and "nie zapomniałem cię" are correct, but their meanings are different. I guess you mean "nie zapomniałem cię" - "I didn't forget about you". The other form is much more difficult to translate. I wanted to try to give you examples, but either I have a mental block, or my English is too weak for the nuances required.
 
Borek said:
mianownik - kto? co?
dopełniacz - kogo? czego?
celownik - komu? czemu?
biernik - kogo? co?
narzędnik - z kim? z czym?
miejscownik - o kim? o czym?
wołacz - a little bit different, it doesn't answer simple question.

"Ci", cię" is not a noun, it is pronoun, but pronouns are inflected just like nouns are.
Oh nice, I'll refer to this post anytime I have a doubt about cases.

Borek said:
Can of worms :smile:

Both forms - "nie zapomniałem ci" and "nie zapomniałem cię" are correct, but their meanings are different. I guess you mean "nie zapomniałem cię" - "I didn't forget about you". The other form is much more difficult to translate. I wanted to try to give you examples, but either I have a mental block, or my English is too weak for the nuances required.
Actually I wanted to mean "I don't forget you". Ok it seems I guessed wrong anyway about the cię/ci.

If you're curious where do I get all these words, it's from some songs I've found on youtube. Particularly from Doda and Agnieszka Chylińska.

And if you get some inspiration regarding a sentence including "nie zapomniałem ci" that you can more or less translate, don't hesitate to post here.
 
Let's try.

Your best friend forgot about your birthday party and didn't show up. Few days later she asks for a favor. You think - no way, and you explain "nie zapomniałem ci tego" - I still remember what you did to me. There is a negative connotation, although technically it could also mean "I remember the favor you did".

"Zapomniałem ci powiedzieć" - very similar - means just "I forgot to tell you about" (it can be also "I forgot to give you" - "zapomniałem ci dać").

Doda is not necessarily between my favorite Polish singers :? IMHO she is kind of a Paris Hilton type - more scandalous than talented.

Longer texts are usually easier to translate and explain, there is less possible ambiguity.
 
Thank you Borek.
I agree about Doda, after all I can only listen to one song of her: dziękuję.
Currently listening to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbe19u8aONo&feature=channel.

I can understand that "nie zapomniałem ci tego" have a negative connotation because of the "nie" but I would have never guessed it could mean, in the context you shown "I remember the favor you did". Right it also have a negative connotation. :smile:
 
Speaking about learning Polish from songs. Very simple text (doesn't mean primitive):



Few years ago it was quite a hit in Poland.
 
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