Why does Mercury have an elliptical orbit?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature of Mercury's elliptical orbit and the underlying reasons for this shape, exploring concepts from classical Newtonian physics and general relativity. Participants examine the implications of spacetime curvature and the differences in orbital shapes among various planets.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether Mercury's elliptical orbit is due to spacetime curvature and if other planets' circular orbits are simply their geodesics, suggesting a limitation in perceiving four-dimensional spacetime.
  • Another participant clarifies that all planets, including Mercury, follow elliptical orbits as a solution to Newtonian physics, and that general relativity modifies this by introducing slight precession, particularly noticeable for Mercury.
  • A later reply asserts that general relativity can accurately describe elliptical precessing orbits, countering claims that it cannot, and mentions the Weierstrass P function as part of the solution for elliptical orbits.
  • Participants note that while Newton's theory can account for most of the perihelion advance of Mercury's orbit, it is general relativity that explains the remaining portion, highlighting the limitations of Newtonian physics in this context.
  • Discussion includes the observation that other celestial bodies, such as Pluto and certain asteroids, exhibit larger eccentricities than Mercury, indicating variability in orbital shapes among different objects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the adequacy of Newtonian physics versus general relativity in explaining Mercury's orbit and its precession. There is no consensus on the implications of these theories for understanding elliptical orbits.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the limitations of Newtonian physics in accounting for precession and the need for general relativity to fully explain the observed phenomena, but specific mathematical steps and assumptions remain unresolved.

TimeRip496
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Why is mercury obit elliptical? Is it because of the curvature of spacetime caused by the presence of sun such that the mercury moves in that orbit otherwise known as geodesics? However what about the other planets like Earth that orbits in a circular orbit? Is is just that that is their geodesics and attempt to explain such orbits through the curvature of spacetime is impossible due to the our inability to percieve the 4 dimensional spacetime?
 
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You may be confusing elliptical orbits and precession.
Elliptical orbits are the standard solution for planetary motion in good old classical Newtonian physics, and all the planets follow at least slightly elliptical orbits - that's what you get if you solve the equations of motion for a ##1/r^2## force.

General relativity says that the Newtonian ##1/r^2## force law isn't exactly correct, and if you use GR to calculate the orbits you'll find that they are elliptical as Newton and Kepler said centuries ago, but also that the ellipses precess very slightly. This precession is most noticeable for Mercury because it is closest to the sun, the forces are greater, and the deviation from the classical non-precessing ellipse is greater.

All the planets are following geodesic paths through spacetime according to GR.
 
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TimeRip496 said:
Is is just that that is their geodesics and attempt to explain such orbits through the curvature of spacetime is impossible due to the our inability to percieve the 4 dimensional spacetime?

No. There is a view on some crackpot sites that GR cannot describe the elliptical precessing orbits of planets. This is not true, and it is in fact Newton's theory which cannot describe the above.

The exact of solution of the ellipse like orbits uses the Weierstrass P function ##\wp##.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weierstrass's_elliptic_functions
 
Mentz114 said:
This is not true, and it is in fact Newton's theory which cannot describe the above.

Technically, Newton can describe about 92% of the perihelion advance. It's only that last 8% that needs GR.

Nugatory said:
all the planets follow at least slightly elliptical orbits

Back when Pluto was a planet, it had a larger eccentricity than Mercury. (I guess it still does!) The asteroids 2 Pallas and 3 Juno also have larger eccentricities.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Technically, Newton can describe about 92% of the perihelion advance. It's only that last 8% that needs GR.
True.
To be more specific, the Newtonian solutions are conic sections which do not include precession at all. Obviously introducing perturbations and applying Newtonian theory can account for most of the precession. GR explains the so called anomalous precession.
 

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