Why Does the Ice Layer on Lakes Regulate Water Temperature?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanisms by which the ice layer on lakes influences the temperature of the liquid water beneath it. Participants explore concepts related to density, specific heat, and the effects of ice on freezing processes, with a focus on theoretical and conceptual aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the ice layer isolates the water below, slowing down the freezing process due to its high specific heat and the nature of hydrogen bonds.
  • Others argue that while ice does slow freezing, it does not prevent it entirely, and that all lakes will eventually freeze under sufficiently low temperatures.
  • A participant highlights that water's density changes at 4°C, which affects how water layers interact and contributes to the freezing process.
  • Another point raised is that the ice layer acts as an insulator, minimizing further freezing of the water below.
  • Some participants emphasize that the presence of ice inhibits convection currents, which affects how heat is transferred and can slow down freezing.
  • There is a contention regarding whether lakes can freeze solid, with some asserting that smaller bodies of water can freeze completely while others maintain that the effects of ice slow the freezing process significantly.
  • A participant questions the use of the term "inhibit," seeking clarification on whether it implies stopping freezing or merely slowing it down.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the effects of ice on freezing processes, with no consensus reached on whether ice can completely prevent lakes from freezing or the implications of water's density changes.

Contextual Notes

Some statements rely on specific assumptions about temperature ranges and conditions under which freezing occurs, and the discussion includes unresolved nuances regarding the definitions of terms like "inhibit."

scientiavore
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Why is there liquid water under the floating ice layer?

I know the answer has to do with ice being less dense than water and its high specific heat(H bonds), but I cannot understand how this layer regulates the temperature of the liquid water that exists under it.
 
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It doesn't regulate temperature per se. It isolates and slows down freezing of the water, but in general if you wait long enough and the temperature is low enough, every lake will freeze, fro top to bottom.

Sure, there can be source of heat below, and if the ice layer is thick enough freezing point goes down, so in some particular places water will not freeze, bute these are special cases.
 
Thanks for your answer.

So, If I understood it correctly, water slows down freezing because of its high specific heat, H fond release energy when they form(iff temperature drops) and they absorb energy when they break(iff temperature increases), right?

I still have problems understanding it considering the fact that these H bonds last only 10^-11 seconds, which was my other question[1], it would be great if you could take a look at it too. :)

[1] - https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=234950
 
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Another important factor is that water has it's lowest density at 4deg C
so as water cools it falls to the bottom of the lake, but when the water drops below 4C it will rise toward the surface and so lakes freeze from the top down.
Because the warmer water is denser there is no convection current and the water at the bottom can only cool through conduction which isn't very effective.

This is an important feature for life - otherwise many lakes/seas would freeze continually.
 
the layer of ice formed above acts as an insulator to minimise further freezing downwards.
 
You are all wrong!
Water's volume decreases upto 4 degree C
And below that it increases all of a sudden(Anomalous expansion of water)
This stops the total freezing
 
Drik Paul said:
You are all wrong!
Water's volume decreases upto 4 degree C
And below that it increases all of a sudden(Anomalous expansion of water)
This stops the total freezing

Are you saying that a lake cannot freeze solid? What about a pond? A skating rink? An ice cube?
 
Drik Paul said:
You are all wrong!
Water's volume decreases upto 4 degree C
And below that it increases all of a sudden(Anomalous expansion of water)
This stops the total freezing
Correction:

Liquid water has its volume at a minimum at 4C, true. Below that, it begins expanding - until it reaches 0C. Then it freezes - and then its volume begins to decrease again.

But ... this is not what stops total freezing. Nothing stops it. But the effects of floating ice do slow the process greatly.
 
Ice floats, as already noted. More importantly, it inhibits convection of heat to the atmosphere, as also noted. As water underneath the 'skin' of ice cools, it sinks, mixing with warmer subsurface waters. This inhibits the freezing process by roughly the square of the surface ice thickness.
 
  • #10
montoyas7940 said:
Are you saying that a lake cannot freeze solid? What about a pond? A skating rink? An ice cube?

You got it right. Small lakes (think depth less than frost line) do freeze solid.
 
  • #11
TVP45 said:
You got it right. Small lakes (think depth less than frost line) do freeze solid.
Yes, it's Drik Paul that needs correcting.
 
  • #12
Chronos said:
This inhibits the freezing process by roughly the square of the surface ice thickness.

Perhaps my English fails me, but I don't understand what you wrote. As far as I understand word "inhibit" it means in this context "to stop freezing". You can't stop freezing by some amount? Do you mean it slows down the freezing? Square suggests you simply refer to the speed at which heat is transferred through the layer of ice of given thickness?
 
  • #13
(of course, I am inhibited …)

Borek said:
Perhaps my English fails me, but I don't understand what you wrote. As far as I understand word "inhibit" it means in this context "to stop freezing".

According to my Pocket Oxford Dictionary, "inhibit" can also mean "hinder" or "restrain" … in my experience, that is the usual meaning. :smile:
 

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