Why Does the Potential Energy of the Wedge Appear in Lagrangian Mechanics?

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the role of potential energy in the context of Lagrangian mechanics, specifically concerning a wedge that can move without friction on a smooth surface. Participants are examining why the potential energy of the wedge is included in the Lagrangian formulation.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking, Exploratory

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Some participants question the necessity of including the wedge's potential energy, noting that it appears constant and may not affect the equations of motion. Others discuss the implications of using the center of mass in the potential energy expression and whether it is appropriate given the wedge's constraints.

Discussion Status

The conversation is ongoing, with participants exploring different interpretations of the problem. Some suggest that including all potential energy terms, even constants, is a systematic approach that may help in more complex scenarios, while others express skepticism about the necessity of this practice in this specific case.

Contextual Notes

There is ambiguity regarding the problem's requirements, particularly whether it asks for the forces of constraint on just the particle or for all forces within the system. This uncertainty may influence the discussion on the inclusion of potential energy terms.

Another
Messages
104
Reaction score
5
Homework Statement
Find the Lagrangian of system.
In the question say the wedge can move without friction on a smooth surface.
Why does the potential energy of the wedge appear in Lagrangian?
Relevant Equations
##\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}} - \frac{\partial L}{\partial q}##
CM 2. 20.png

In Solution https://www.slader.com/textbook/9780201657029-classical-mechanics-3rd-edition/67/derivations-and-exercises/20/

In the question say the wedge can move without friction on a smooth surface.

Why does the potential energy of the wedge appear in Lagrangian?

(You can see the Larangian of this system at below.)
CM 2. 20 .1.png

CM 2. 20 .2.png
 
Physics news on Phys.org
The potential energy of the wedge is constant anyway, so isn't going to affect the equation of motion.

But in any case the expression ##U = Mgy_M## isn't correct, because the centre of mass of the wedge is not the coordinate ##y_M## (that is the coordinate of the left corner). In any case they will still stumble upon the correct answer, because the mistake happens to be constant and drops out.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Steve4Physics
It looks like strange thing to do. I wouldn't have the terms involving ##y_M## and ##\dot y_M## as the wedge is constrained to move in the x-direction only.
 
They are just following a systematic approach and plugging-in all values of potential energy, even the constant one which is going to disappear. If you do this for all problems, it helps you to establish a standard approach and makes it less likely you'll forget some term(s) in more complex problems. Not essential but probably a useful practice for some students.

As etotheipi points out, they've done it incorrectly, which is a good example of irony.
 
Moreover, the Lagrangian is defined up to an additive function
$$\dot f(t,q)=\frac{\partial f}{\partial t}+\frac{\partial f}{\partial q^i}\dot q^i$$
that is the Lagrangians ##L## and ##L'=L+\dot f(t,q)## generate the same equations
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71 and etotheipi
Steve4Physics said:
They are just following a systematic approach and plugging-in all values of potential energy, even the constant one which is going to disappear. If you do this for all problems, it helps you to establish a standard approach and makes it less likely you'll forget some term(s) in more complex problems. Not essential but probably a useful practice for some students.
I don't think this was the motivation here. The problem asks for the forces of constraint as well, so you don't want to impose the constraint right from the start. It's not entirely clear to me from the problem statement, however, if it was asking for just the forces of constraint on just the particle or for all of the forces of constraint within the system.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
6K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K