Why does this needle get an E field while this disk gets a D field?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter CrosisBH
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Disk Field Needle
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differences between electric fields (E fields) and displacement fields (D fields) in the context of polarization within cavities in dielectrics. Participants explore the implications of these fields in relation to a needle and a disk, examining boundary conditions and the behavior of fields in these geometries.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes confusion regarding why a needle experiences an E field while a disk experiences a D field, suggesting that the small size of the needle may make certain effects negligible.
  • Another participant states that E and D are distinct quantities that can have different values in cavities, mentioning that in vacuum, the relationship is given by ##\vec{D}=\epsilon_0*\vec{E}##.
  • A reference to an external source is provided, discussing electric fields within cavities in dielectrics, although the relevance to the original question is not clarified.
  • A participant recommends a book by J. Schwinger for a detailed analysis of constitutive equations, suggesting it contains valuable insights into the topic.
  • One participant explains the understanding of boundary conditions, stating that the normal component of D is continuous across a boundary while the tangential E field is continuous, noting the neglect of fringing fields in their discussion.
  • Another participant challenges the continuity of the normal component of D, referencing the macroscopic Maxwell equation and the role of free charge in determining discontinuities.
  • A later reply acknowledges that within dielectrics, free charges are typically absent, but emphasizes the need for clarity in boundary value problems when surface charges are involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of E and D fields, particularly in relation to boundary conditions and the presence of free charges. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives on the implications of these fields in the given geometries.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding, particularly regarding assumptions about boundary conditions and the specification of surface charges in the problem context.

CrosisBH
Messages
27
Reaction score
4
1573087321045.png


So I'm reviewing old lectures to prepare for an exam soon. This is about polarization. E fields, D Fields, etc. My professor labeled this diagram like so. The figures my professor drew are cavities in a dielectric if you can't read her handwriting. However, I can't seem to figure out why the needle gets an E field, and the disk gets an D field. She stated that if we turn the disk cavity 90 degrees to align with the needle, we get an E field.

$$\textbf{D} = \epsilon_0\textbf{E} + \textbf{P} = \epsilon\textbf{E}$$

This equation doesn't make it obvious to me why it is so. The D field is in the direction of the E field, since a D field is a scaled up E field with polarization in mind. My only guess is that the size of the needle being small makes some things negligible.

Thank you for any help you can give!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
E and D are different quantities, that have some values in both cavities. If there is vacuum in cavity then: ##\vec{D}=\epsilon_0*\vec{E}##
 
A great book, for some reason totally underrated in the textbook universe, is

J. Schwinger, Classical Electrodynamics

There you find a careful analysis of all standard constitutive equations using simple classical (non-relativistic though!) models.

The standard key word to look for in this and other books is the "Lorentz-Lorenz formula" or "Clausius-Mosotti Law".
 
The way I understand this is in terms of boundary conditions. The normal component of ##D## is continuous across a boundary while the tangential ##E## field is continuous across a boundary. Both pictures neglect fringing fields near the disk edge and the cylinder ends. At the center of the disk the normal ##D## is the same inside and outside the cavity. Near the midpoint of the cylinder, it's the tangential ##E## that's the same inside and outside the cavity.
 
Hm, usually the normal component of ##\vec{D}## is discontinuous with the jump being equal to the surface charge. This follows from the macroscopic Maxwell equation,
$$\vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{D}=\rho_{\text{free}}.$$
 
True, within dielectrics usually you have no free charges. I thought you made a general statement about the boundary conditions.
 
Certainly true that the step in normal ##D## is the surface charge in all cases. For ideal dielectrics, ##\rho_\text{free}=0## so in most cases this step is zero. One may always inject a surface charge onto a boundary but the statement of the problem would need to include this else the boundary value problem isn't specified completely.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71

Similar threads

Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
92
Views
5K