Why is Alcor not considered part of Ursa Major?

[darksoda]

Hey folks i got a doubt, Alcor is behind of Mizar,very near and why Alcor doesn't make part of the Ursa Major? i mean the Ursa Major is compost of 7 stars and alcor doesn't make part. thanks for the attention.

 

[Bandersnatch]

What do you mean it isn't part of UMa? All stars lying within that part of the sky belong to this constellation - by definition. There is most certainly more than 7 stars in there.

 

[tiny-tim]

hi darksoda!

The 7 stars have no official name, but are popularly know as the Plough or the Big Dipper.

Ursa Major is the name of the whole constellation, which contains (i think) hundreds of stars in our own galaxy, and plenty of deep-sky objects.

The stars in Ursa Major are given letters or numbers in order of brightness, except that the 7 brightest are in left-to-right order.

Alcor is not very bright, so it known as 80 Ursae Majoris, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursa_Major#Stars

 

[Vanadium 50]

You keep using the word "doubt" - I don't think it means what you think it means.

Both Mizar and Alcor are part of Ursa Major. Their Bayer designations are Zeta Ursa Majoris and 80 Ursa Majoris. Ursa Major consists of every star in a certain region of sky - John Flamsteed cataloged 86 (more or less naked-eye) stars in this region.

 

[Phoenix59]

In the day when the original designations were made to label the brightest stars (Alpha, Beta, Gamma, etc.) Alcor was not separately labeled, because even though it had been known to be a double star for hundreds of years -- the Native Americans used to use it as a test of vision, and the Arabs referred to the pair as the Horse and Rider -- it was considered to be one body for astronomical purposes, and was tagged as Zeta (ζ) Ursae Majoris.

Now, if you want to be completely accurate, the Mizar-Alcor system is actually SIX stars: Mizar is a quadruple system and little Alcor is itself a binary.

 

[darksoda]

thanks for all answers :D so i can't use more the word doubt D:

 

[AlephZero]

You keep using the word "doubt" - I don't think it means what you think it means.

In India (and maybe more widely in that general geographical area) it tends to mean "question" in a neutral sense, without the implication that you don't believe something is true.

 

[tiny-tim]

i once (i think) heard anglo-american broadcaster alistair cooke say that a few hundred years ago "i doubt that" mean the opposite of what it means now …

i've never checked whether he was right about that

 

[darksoda]

hey folks i just have this ''doubt'' of this question because is saw saint seiya when i was Young and they have the asgard fight again 7 warriors who represent the 7 stars more shinning but there is the twins who from mizar e alcor and that make 8 warriors and one of this twins was the shadow of his brother because he is alcor the star behind of mizar anyway let's say of the ursa major second our friend up there and also they names are connected to the norse mythology for example Siegfried of Dubhe the Star Alpha Siegried the hero of norse mythology, Dubhe the star in the sky and Alpha the position of the star in the constellation.

 

[darksoda]

hey folks in my language the translation of Big Dipper is big car someone know why xD ?

 

[tiny-tim]

hey folks in my language the translation of Big Dipper is big car someone know why xD ?

hi darksoda!

i don't know of any type of car known as anything remotely like a Dipper in English

(except that the switch that dips the headlamps is called the dipper)

or do you mean that the constellation is called the Big Car in your language? if so it can't be a very old name!

("Big Dipper" of course refers to a spoon or saucepan that you dip into food)

 

[Bandersnatch]

The colloquial name for Ursa Major in Polish is "Big Cart"(@tiny-tim: I wonder what was invented first, carts or dippers). Any good dictionary would pair these two names, rather than going for a word-for-word translation.
We can expect the same relationship in whatever language yours is, darksoda.

 

[tiny-tim]

The colloquial name for Ursa Major in Polish is "Big Cart"

ahh, cart! (with shafts for pulling, unlike a car) …

that makes much more sense! ​

 

[darksoda]

thanks folks xD my language is Portuguese so i think wikipedia in portuguese is wrong because say big car , David Car and casserole are the names but i search in Spanish wiki cause for those who don't know Spanish is the easiest language to learn when you speak portuguese xD and is really cart like a supermarket cart anyone know why cart? like remember a supermarket cart ?

 

[Bandersnatch]

thanks folks xD my language is Portuguese so i think wikipedia in portuguese is wrong because say big car , David Car and casserole are the names but i search in Spanish wiki cause for those who don't know Spanish is the easiest language to learn when you speak portuguese xD and is really cart like a supermarket cart anyone know why cart? like remember a supermarket cart ?

Like these:
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carroça

Google translate says 'carro' and 'carroça' can be treated as synonyms, and in the case of the asterism this is the most likely meaning, rather than an automobile.

 

[tiny-tim]

thanks folks xD my language is Portuguese so i think wikipedia in portuguese is wrong because say big car , David Car and casserole are the names but i search in Spanish wiki cause for those who don't know Spanish is the easiest language to learn when you speak portuguese xD and is really cart like a supermarket cart anyone know why cart? like remember a supermarket cart ?

a cart in english usually has two wheels, and so needs two rigid pieces of wood (called shafts) attached to it, partly to pull it but mostly to keep it upright

(a supermarket cart is not a proper cart, since it has four wheels, and in england is called a supermarket trolley, not a cart)

the two shafts seen from the side look like one shaft, and that is the "tail" of the great bear

 

[darksoda]

thanks again folks :D i think i get it xD like a cart of with 2 wheels like a cart of old ages with the horse.

 

[tadchem]

The wikipedia article "Big_Dipper" shows that in different cultures the asterism is identified as 7 persons (sages or gods), a canoe, a wagon, a plow, a bear, a dipper, a coffin with mourners, a butcher's cleaver, a drinking gourd, a she-bear followed by 3 cubs/hunters, and a Fisher cat (weasel).

 

[abitslow]

It should be repeated: Modern Astronomy defines the Constellations to be areas of the sky. ALL of the sky is divided up into patches, called Constellations by the IAU. Historical constellations in those patches of sky were used to name the patches, BUT there was NEVER a line drawing connecting some of the stars into a shape which was AGREED to BE the constellation. Many examples exist in which the same stars are part of different "shapes".
Which drawing you use depends on your cultural roots. Roman constellations are different from (ancient) Greek ones. Here are the patches:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Constellations_ecliptic_equirectangular_plot.svg
You can draw any shapes you want and call them anything you want; car, cart, spaceship, Enterprise, NCC-1701, or Oceana Basílio ...