Why Is Minkowski Spacetime Non-Euclidean?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the question of why Minkowski spacetime is considered non-Euclidean. Participants explore the implications of this characterization, the definitions of Euclidean and non-Euclidean spaces, and the conceptual understanding of spacetime geometry in the context of physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the non-Euclidean nature of Minkowski spacetime is understood through empirical evidence and the behavior of the universe, while others question the philosophical implications of why our universe adheres to these laws.
  • There is a distinction made between understanding Minkowski spacetime as a mathematical construct versus its empirical representation of our universe.
  • Participants discuss the definition of the Minkowski metric, noting that it differs from Euclidean metrics, which leads to the conclusion that Minkowski spacetime cannot be classified as Euclidean.
  • Some express interest in individual interpretations of what it means for spacetime to be non-Euclidean and whether there exists a mental image that represents this concept.
  • Concerns are raised about the representability of the Minkowski metric in human cognition, with some arguing that it is indeed imaginable despite its complexities.
  • References to educational materials and previous discussions are made to provide context and support for various viewpoints on the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the nature of Minkowski spacetime or the implications of its non-Euclidean characteristics. Multiple competing views remain regarding the understanding and representation of spacetime geometry.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions highlight the limitations of understanding Minkowski spacetime through traditional Euclidean concepts, as well as the dependence on definitions and interpretations of geometric properties.

  • #61
PeroK said:
What is valid is that, for a fixed ##c##, as ##v \to 0## then the LT does tend to the Galilean transformation.

If you mean ## \lim_{v \rightarrow 0}{}##, then you get only a special case of the GT :smile:

## \lim_{v \rightarrow 0}{(\gamma (x-vt))} = x-0 \cdot t = x, \ \ \ \ \ ## ## \lim_{v \rightarrow 0}{(\gamma (t-vx/c^2))} = t##
 
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  • #62
Sagittarius A-Star said:
If you mean ## \lim_{v \rightarrow 0}{}##, then you get only a special case of the GT :smile:

## \lim_{v \rightarrow 0}{(\gamma (x-vt))} = x-0 \cdot t = x, \ \ \ \ \ ## ## \lim_{v \rightarrow 0}{(\gamma (t-vx/c^2))} = t##
You're missing the point. If ##v## is small, then ##\gamma \approx 1##. And you can study a subset of SR where ##v## is small and you have approximately the Galilean transformation.

If ##c## is large, then not all gamma factors are approximately ##1##. You don't have an approximation to Galilean relativity.
 
  • #63
PeroK said:
If ##v## is small, then ##\gamma \approx 1##. And you can study a subset of SR where ##v## is small and you have approximately the Galilean transformation.
That's correct, except if the ##x## in ##\gamma (t-vx/c^2)## is very large, as @PAllen mentioned in #50.
 
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  • #64
PAllen said:
as c is taken to approach infinity, the error of any observation compared to Galilean approaches zero
This is really the scientifically important fact. For SR to be a valid theory the differences between it and Galilean relativity must be smaller than the experimental uncertainty in any domain where Galilean relativity has been experimentally validated. You can express that requirement with several different limits, but the important fact is that in any of those limits the difference must approach zero.
 
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