Why is the first term on the right-hand side of this equation transposed?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the transposition of terms in a tensor equation, specifically examining the equation involving the gradient of a tensor product. Participants explore the implications of tensor contraction and the alignment of indices in tensor operations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the expression for the tensor S can be represented as \( S = S(\omega^\alpha, e_\beta, e_\gamma)e_\alpha \otimes \omega^\beta \otimes \omega^\gamma \).
  • There is a suggestion that contracting two indices can yield a new tensor, with some participants questioning if this is another form of contraction.
  • One participant explains that the transposition of the first term on the right-hand side of the equation is necessary to align the indices correctly, referencing the left-hand side for clarity.
  • Another participant expresses confusion regarding the transposition process, questioning the order of indices after applying transposition.
  • A later reply indicates that the term "transpose" is being used differently in this context and provides a detailed explanation of how the gradient of a rank two tensor is defined and how it relates to the tensor product.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the use of transposition in the context of the equation. There are differing interpretations of how indices should be aligned and the implications of transposing terms.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the definition of transposition may vary and that the discussion involves complex tensor operations that require careful consideration of index alignment and tensor definitions.

Living_Dog
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From Box 3.3, p. 85:

Since [tex] S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\beta\gamma} = S(\omega^\alpha, e_\beta, e_\gamma)[/tex]

and

since S[tex]=S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\beta\gamma}e_\alpha\otimes\omega^\beta\otimes\omega^\gamma[/tex]

is it then true that

S[tex]=S(\omega^\alpha, e_\beta, e_\gamma)e_\alpha\otimes\omega^\beta\otimes\omega^\gamma\ ?[/tex]

Also, to get a new tensor from an old tensor, one of the techniques is to contract two of the indexes with each other. Is this another form of contraction, namely:

[tex]T_\gamma = S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\alpha\gamma} = S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\beta\gamma}\eta^{\beta}_{\phantom{\beta}\alpha} = S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\beta\gamma}\eta^{\beta\lambda}\eta_{\lambda\alpha}\ ?[/tex]

Finally, why is the 1st term on the rhs of this equation transposed??

[tex]\nabla([/tex]R[tex]\otimes[/tex]M[tex]) = (\nabla[/tex]R[tex]\otimes[/tex]M[tex])^T\ +\[/tex]R[tex]\otimes\nabla[/tex]M
 
Last edited:
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Living_Dog said:
is it then true that
S[tex]=S(\omega^\alpha, e_\beta, e_\gamma)e_\alpha\otimes\omega^\beta\otimes\omega^\gamma\ ?[/tex]

yes

Living_Dog said:
Also, to get a new tensor from an old tensor, one of the techniques is to contract two of the indexes with each other. Is this another form of contraction, namely:

[tex]T_\gamma = S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\alpha\gamma} = S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\beta\gamma}\eta^{\beta}_{\phantom{\beta}\alpha} = S^{\alpha}_{\phantom{\alpha}\beta\gamma}\eta^{\beta\lambda}\eta_{\lambda\alpha}\ ?[/tex]
yes. but the reason is easy if you remember [itex]\eta^\alpha_\beta = \delta^\alpha_\beta[/itex]. where [itex]\eta^\alpha_\beta[/itex] is defined
by your second equality.


Living_Dog said:
Finally, why is the 1st term on the rhs of this equation transposed??

[tex]\nabla([/tex]R[tex]\otimes[/tex]M[tex]) = (\nabla[/tex]R[tex]\otimes[/tex]M[tex])^T\ +\[/tex]R[tex]\otimes\nabla[/tex]M

Just a reminder of the way the indices line up. look at the lhs
(Ra Mb),c = Ra,c Mb + RaMb,c.

The order of indices is abc. So how do you make the 1st term on the right have
the same order? Transpose the last two entries.
 
qbert said:
...

Just a reminder of the way the indices line up. look at the lhs
(Ra Mb),c = Ra,c Mb + RaMb,c.

The order of indices is abc. So how do you make the 1st term on the right have
the same order? Transpose the last two entries.

Thanks for the explanation. So ok, my transpositioning skillz are weak... is it:

(Ra,c Mb)T = MbT(Ra,c) T = Mb Rc,a?

But then the order is bca != abc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
no. they're using transpose differently here.

(and not in an especially great way - in my oppinion
/see earlier in the chapter where they only transpose
the last two indices of a rank 3 tensor/ )

let's go slowly and see how this all works.

start with two rank 1 tensors, R and M. They act on vectors to give numbers.
We can form a rank two tensor R [itex]\otimes[/itex] M which "eats" two vectors and spits out a number. from this we can form a rank 3 tensor by using the "gradient".

ok. say we had a rank two tensor S. the definition for the gradient
says given 3 vectors "u,v,w" we have
[tex]\nabla S (u, v, w) = \frac{\partial S_{ab}}{\partial x^c} u^a v^b w^c[/tex]
or in the case of the S = R [itex]\otimes[/itex] M
we have
[tex]\nabla (R\otimes M) (u, v, w) = \frac{\partial (R_a M_b)}{\partial x^c} u^a v^b w^c = \frac{\partial R_a}{\partial x^c}M_b u^a v^b w^c + R_a \frac{\partial M_b}{\partial x^c} u^a v^b w^c[/tex]

Now we want to make sense of these coordinate independently
The second term is: [itex](R \otimes \nabla M )(u, v, w)[/itex].
But the first term is: [itex](\nabla R \otimes M )(u, w, v)[/itex].

Notice we've switched the order only of the last two slots. so we define a new
tensor Transpose [itex](\nabla R \otimes M)[/itex] such that
for any three vectors u, v, w
Transpose [itex](\nabla R \otimes M)[/itex] (u,v,w) = [itex](\nabla R \otimes M)[/itex] (u, w, v).

That's it.
 

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