Why is there no frost below a certain temperature?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions under which frost forms, particularly focusing on the temperature thresholds and atmospheric moisture levels. Participants explore the relationship between air temperature, surface temperature, and humidity in the context of frost formation, including specific scenarios and examples from personal experience.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that at 21°F, there was no frost observed, suggesting that moisture may freeze out of the air at lower temperatures.
  • Another participant references a Wikipedia article explaining that frost forms when water vapor in an above-freezing atmosphere contacts a surface below freezing, implying that frost cannot form if the atmosphere is below freezing.
  • A different participant adds that clear skies and radiational cooling can cause surface temperatures to drop below freezing, affecting frost formation on surfaces like car windshields.
  • One participant questions the accuracy of the Wikipedia explanation, arguing that frost can form at any air temperature and emphasizing the role of relative humidity in frost formation.
  • Another participant explains that frost formation depends on the relative humidity at the surface being below the frost point, noting that winter air contains water vapor despite being dry.
  • Discussion includes the concept of hoar frost, which requires specific conditions for formation, such as water vapor coming into contact with surfaces already below freezing.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conditions necessary for frost formation, with some agreeing on the role of temperature and humidity while others challenge the explanations provided, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various factors influencing frost formation, such as surface temperature, atmospheric conditions, and the presence of moisture, but do not reach a consensus on the specific temperature at which frost does not form.

gary350
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It is 21°F here this morning and no frost on anything not even car windows. I have noticed this before when it gets cold enough there is no frost. Maybe all the moisture freezes out of the air and there is no moisture to make frost? I don't know? At what temperature is there no frost?
 
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That's a good question. I think I found the answer in the very first sentence of the Wikipedia article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frost
Frost is a thin layer of ice on a solid surface, which forms from water vapor in an above-freezing atmosphere coming in contact with a solid surface whose temperature is below freezing,[1][2] and resulting in a phase change from water vapor (a gas) to ice (a solid) as the water vapor reaches the freezing point.

So if the atmosphere is below freezing, you no longer have the conditions for frost.

Often you can answer your own questions better by checking sources like Wikipedia first.
 
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I should add that the solid surface temperature drops below freezing when there are clear skies overnight and there is heat loss on the solid surfaces due to radiational cooling. When I lived in a cold climate, it was frequently the case that when I parked my car in the driveway outside the garage, I only had to scrape frost from the windshield (rear or front) that faced away from the house. I attributed that to radiation from the house keeping the near windshield warm enough to prevent frost formation.
 
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gary350 said:
Maybe all the moisture freezes out of the air and there is no moisture to make frost? I don't know?
Please, see:
https://hvacrschool.com/relative-humidity-of-air-below-freezing/

Absolute humidity (content of water vapor in the mass of air) of cold air is less than that of warmer air, but is not zero.
 
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anorlunda said:
That's a good question. I think I found the answer in the very first sentence of the Wikipedia article.
So if the atmosphere is below freezing, you no longer have the conditions for frost.

Often you can answer your own questions better by checking sources like Wikipedia first.
I not sure the wiki explanation is correct, especially the part about the above atmospheric temperature.
Frost can form at any temperature of the air.
The particular explanation given is why frost can form on plants, or car windows, when the air is above 32 F.

It is a similar argument of why droplets of water form on a cold drink.
The surface of the drink has to be at/below the dew point of the air, meaning in the vicinity of the glass surface the relative humidity is 100%, or supersaturated , and dew will form.

For frost to form on a surface, the relative humidity at the surface has to be below the frost point.
While winter air is dry, simply speaking, it does contain water vapour.
That water vapour can condense out of the air onto a cold surface which is below the frost point forming that annoying cover on car windshields, or the beautiful rendition of nature's art on trees.

So during the daytime, when the air is warmer, but below freezing, the air will contain a certain amount of moisture. For one particular situation such as on a clear night where surfaces radiate their heat out into space, the relative humidity near the surface can become 100^, promoting the formation of frost on the surface.

One may note that the different types of frost, such as the hard to scrape of stuff versus the light crunchy stuff depends upon the moisture content of the cold air, the temperature, and the rate and amount of deposition as solid water onto the surface.

Look up hoar frost .
Hoar frost requires slightly different conditions. It forms when the water vapour in the air comes into contact with solid surfaces that are already below freezing point. Ice crystals form immediately, and the ice continues to grow as more water vapour is frozen. On a still night, it can grow well on tree branches, where the surface temperature is unlikely to rise above zero for several hours
https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/blog/2019/02/what-is-hoar-frost/
 

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