News Why Would an Adult Target Kindergarten Students in a Shooting?

[edward]

I am skeptical that 'training' had any real impact, as he'd already made up his mind. Maybe during the shooting he convinced himself that it was just another game, but that's delusion, not desensitization.



I'm not sure what you mean here. Shooting a gun at paper targets will desensitize you to the light and noise, but target practice isn't going to mentally or emotionally prepare you to take a life. Video games would certainly be much better at that.




I don't really follow this either. The jihad training games are not made by typical game studios. If you're suggesting that all violence is immoral, I would say that self defense (for individuals or countries) is not, and that no matter how moral the game, if it has violence, that aspect of it can be adjusted (e.g. modded) into a new game without the morality.

Of course, for the actual game studios to have any reason for this, it would help to prove that what they're doing is harmful to otherwise healthy people, and I don't believe that it is.

The video games are getting more and more violent and much more realistic than a few years ago. I take it from your point of view we should wait until they do have a harmful effect on normally healthy people.

From my point of view if they don't have an effect on normal people now they eventually will.

 

[justsomeguy]

I take it from your point of view we should wait until they do have a harmful effect on normally healthy people.

Yes, and perhaps not even then, if by 'wait' you mean 'wait to involve the government.' There are a million things the government should be doing before it takes it upon itself to play the role of parent, psychiatrist, or conscience.

 

[Evo]

There is no evidence that the killer was into video games.

What I just caught on the tail end on a tv report was that the killer went to target practice with his mother and her guns.

Each victim shot between 3-11 times.

 

[Jack21222]

There is no evidence that the killer was into video games.

What I just caught on the tail end on a tv report was that the killer went to target practice with his mother and her guns.

And even if he was, video games are so ubiquitous, it would be like saying "the killer was into watching television."

 

[nsaspook]

Yes, and perhaps not even then, if by 'wait' you mean 'wait to involve the government.' There are a million things the government should be doing before it takes it upon itself to play the role of parent, psychiatrist, or conscience.

It would be refreshing if government would get out of the "parent, psychiatrist, or conscience" business.

 

[Evo]

It would be refreshing if government would get out of the "parent, psychiatrist, or conscience" business.

I feel that there should be government regulation of these things because individuals screw up too much.

We don't have government regulations and intervention right now, and look where it's gotten us. The individual rights of people prevent most intervention, what law enforcement and mental health professionals can do is limited. Parents, even less held to "government" interference, which you have yet to explain.

Since you make the claim

government would get out of the "parent, psychiatrist, or conscience" business

Please post the laws to which you are referring.

 

[justsomeguy]

It would be refreshing if government would get out of the "parent, psychiatrist, or conscience" business.

Agree 100%

I feel that there should be government regulation of these things because individuals screw up too much.

So what? If an individual does not have the right to screw up their own life however they see fit, you're on the fast road to a terribly authoritarian society.

Since you make the claim Please post the laws to which you are referring.

NYC banning "large" soft drinks is the most recent that comes to mind for me.

 

[nsaspook]

And even if he was, video games are so ubiquitous, it would be like saying "the killer was into watching television."

I think that's part of problem, violence has so saturated the culture we assume it's normal and safe for everyone because we're not affected. There is something happening to our culture that's being expressed by the use of guns in the most violent means possible. We can be numb to the possible causes but if this trend continues gun rights won't be the only rights being trashed to stop it.

 

[Evo]

So what? If an individual does not have the right to screw up their own life however they see fit, you're on the fast road to a terribly authoritarian society.

Ok, that means that we currently do not have that, contrary to what was claimed.

So, you think that what happened is ok, because he had the right to do as he saw fit?

NYC banning "large" soft drinks is the most recent that comes to mind for me.

No, LOL, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

[gravenewworld]

I mean this is totally practical for self defense. A "semi automatic":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fW_HMBLvzuU
I'm sure the forefathers foresaw this technology becoming a reality when they drafted the constitution. Get real, the forefathers are not demigods.

A "semi auto" that shoots 400 shots a minute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WDAIN-Onc0&feature=player_embedded
I feel sooooooo much safer knowing the fact that there's probably 1000s of people walking around out there with one of those that aren't law enforcement or the military.

 

[chiro]

If people want to do something that in no affects others in a detrimental way they should be allowed to do it.

When it affects other people, this is where regulation, legislation, consent, and other important attributes come in.

This is really what governments should be focusing on and there are a lot of great people in government that give a stuff about this that allow them to do a fantastic job in making sure everything works and works well (unfortunately not all though).

This is a natural self-organizing system and for many purposes it has worked well.

The amount of red tape, triple checking, and cross the t's and dotting the i's increases as the potential risk of destructive behaviour increases in the specific activity.

The unfortunate thing though is that sometimes when people do things they think that they don't affect other people, when they actually do have an effect on those close around them.

One thing that I would emphasize is that if people are sick of governments running their lives then they should be making every effort to prove that they are responsible citizens of this world and run their own lives by making their own decisions and sticking by them and the consequences they bring.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening for the majority and in this case you will get a nanny state, simply because people are unwilling to show the government that they can act like grownups and actually give a stuff about their communities and their world.

People could stop supporting this system and create a new one if they wanted to and they could potentially live in a society with a completely different governmental structure without even the need for money to function.

But this would require an absolutely incredible amount of discipline and genuine intent to do the what's best for everyone for every single person involved without exception.

It is the situation now that if most people won the lottery, they would do what they wanted instead of what other people wanted.

So we are slaves to money simply because of the fact that most people would stop helping people and only help themselves.

If people decide to give a stuff about their neighbour and show that they have the personal responsibility and the discipline required to not be governed like a kid by his parent, then and then will people be ready to change the system but until then I don't see the point.

Also I should point out that although some people are like this, many are not and it sincerely upsets me to see this kind of behaviour both in my own and through others experience (chatting, videos, documentaries, etc) all the time.

 

[justsomeguy]

No, LOL, that has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Hold up.. is that for you to decide in this context? Someone said we should "step in." I disagreed and said it was none of the governments business and that they were doing enough already. You asked for an example, and there it is.

At issue is simply do I have the right to potentially harm myself (physically, emotionally, psychologically) or not? The government can keep not only out of my bedroom, but out of my kitchen and television as well, and those restrictions extend to restaurants and movie theaters, as long as the attendees are responsible adults.

 

[Evo]

Hold up.. is that for you to decide in this context? Someone said we should "step in." I disagreed and said it was none of the governments business and that they were doing enough already. You asked for an example, and there it is.

We're not talking about a city decision on soft drinks.

You are out on a tangent that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Yeah, I have to pay parking meters at some street locations. OMG, my rights to park on the street are being controlled by government! My rights to free parking on public streets have been taken away! It's a conspiracy! What's next?

You do know that the soft drink order was the result of public upset about obesity? That people can vote or have input on local decisions at city hall, meetings and votes?

 

[justsomeguy]

We're not talking about a city decision on soft drinks.

You are out on a tangent that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Yeah, I have to pay parking meters at some street locations. OMG, my rights to park on the street are being controlled by government! My rights to free parking on public streets have been taken away! It's a conspiracy! What's next?

I said nothing of the sort. It's been alluded to that the government should step in and 'do something' about these violent video games, because they have the potential to 'cause problems.' I disagree. The soft drink law is a perfect example of that : the government stepping into save me from myself.

There's no relation to parking meters.

 

[Evo]

It just keeps getting weirder.

Turns out that the shooter's mother was not a teacher and not affilated with the school.

The Newtown area superintendant said Lanza was not a teacher at the school and was not in their database at all on the Today show Saturday morning. It would appear she has no major connection to the school at all.

http://news.yahoo.com/nancy-lanza-r...50BHB0A3N0b3J5cGFnZQR0ZXN0A040VV9jb3Jl;_ylv=3

The aunt of Connecticut shooter Adam Lanza said the shooter's mother pulled him out of Newtown's public school system because she was unhappy with the school district's plans for her son.

That they indentified mental problems?

she wound up home-schooling him because she battled with the school district," said Marsha.

http://news.yahoo.com/adam-lanzas-mom-pulled-him-school-relative-194453060--abc-news-topstories.html;_ylt=AhZtXLstyjHefEFiAUO_VxrNt.d_;_ylu=X3oDMTFkZWgzYnZwBG1pdANCbG9nIEJvZHkEcG9zAzIEc2VjA01lZGlhQmxvZ0JvZHlBc3NlbWJseQ--;_ylg=X3oDMTNoOTlzbXQ1BGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRwc3RhaWQDZTJmM2Y0M2EtZDRiMy0zMjQ5LTgyMzUtOWE1ZTgzNjhkNjhjBHBzdGNhdANibG9nc3x0aGVsb29rb3V0BHB0A3N0b3J5cGFnZQR0ZXN0A040VV9jb3Jl;_ylv=3

IMO. Home schooling to avoid school mental assessment. Buying guns and taking her son to shooting ranges. Kid goes crazy and becomes mass gun murderer.

 

[nsaspook]

The point was made that there are some incident levels we're willing to accept when it comes to different things, like car accidents and gun violence, and perhaps to violence in media as well. I think though that if you take the numbers in context, rather than looking at them in a vacuum, they tell a different story.

I think these types of tragic events follow the power law pattern like income distribution not a regular statistical distribution. The total counts of crime remains fairly stable or drops but as time moves on in the cycles of violence we begin see a few people who commit crimes that are much worse than the norm and there are usually similar characteristics about these people. They will never be a large number but when an event does happen it will usually be of a unthinkable nature. When we study the reasons and possible solutions for it we need look at these characteristics and what reinforces the possibilities for extreme violence in this small population.

 

[edward]

She didn't have to work.

Nancy Lanza divorced Adam’s father, Peter, in 2008. Peter Lanza, now a vice president of taxes for GE Energy Financial Services, agreed to annual alimony payments that started at $240,000 and would have reached $298,800 in 2015.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ned-shoot-mom-article-1.1220893#ixzz2FBToVNV1

 

[WannabeNewton]

I think that's part of problem, violence has so saturated the culture we assume it's normal and safe for everyone because we're not affected. There is something happening to our culture that's being expressed by the use of guns in the most violent means possible. We can be numb to the possible causes but if this trend continues gun rights won't be the only rights being trashed to stop it.

Really? Because violent books have been around for AGES. Stop putting the blame on material things for pete's sake. It isn't that simple.

 

[nsaspook]

Really? Because violent books have been around for AGES. Stop putting the blame on material things for pete's sake. It isn't that simple.

Stop being simple yourself. You're right it's not the "material things", it's about looking into the cause and effect of simulated violence on the mental states of already sick people. The blame belongs only on the person who committed the crime but it's foolish not to examine what factors shaped his actions before and after the decision was made to commit the crime.

 

[edward]

It doesn't get any more violent than this.

Dr. H. Wayne Carver II, Connecticut's long-time chief medical examiner, said most of the 20 children and six adults killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School early Friday morning were first-graders. Among seven he personally examined, all had three to 11 bullet wounds

.



http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/15/connecticut-school-shooting-adam-lanza/1771021/

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

Stop being simple yourself. You're right it's not the "material things", it's about looking into the cause and effect of simulated violence on the mental states of already sick people. The blame belongs only on the person who committed the crime but it's foolish not to examine what factors shaped his actions before and after the decision was made to commit the crime.

*Yes, I know you weren't addressing me with this post, but I did reply to you earlier on this very topic.*

It's still a better use of time to better understand the mental illnesses themselves rather than examining every material or object that a mentally ill person comes into contact with, just to see if it might have some negative affect on them.

 

[Skrew]

I always knew something like this would happen at some point. Besides looking at the causes of the violence the solution is not to pass more gun control to strip power from the law abideing population but to enable the population to protect themselves.

Schools should either have armed guards or teachers who carry firearms with them(after demonstrateing proficiency).

edit

Hopefully this edited post is OK to evo, it's difficult to know what's considerd acceptable since I see other posts in this thread which don't appear directly related and haven't been removed.

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

I always knew something like this would happen at some point. Besides looking at the causes of the violence the solution is not to pass more gun control to strip power from the law abideing population but to enable the population to protect themselves.

Schools should either have armed guards or teachers who carry firearms with them(after demonstrateing proficiency).

edit

Hopefully this edited post is OK to evo, it's difficult to know what's considerd acceptable since I see other posts in this thread which don't appear directly related and haven't been removed.

I'll keep it simple, and just say that the solution to maniacs with guns is not more guns; it's finding a way to keep the guns away from those maniacs.

 

[Evo]

I always knew something like this would happen at some point. Besides looking at the causes of the violence the solution is not to pass more gun control to strip power from the law abideing population but to enable the population to protect themselves.

Schools should either have armed guards or teachers who carry firearms with them(after demonstrateing proficiency).

edit

Hopefully this edited post is OK to evo, it's difficult to know what's considerd acceptable since I see other posts in this thread which don't appear directly related and haven't been removed.

We created a thread here https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=659069

for people to speculate on technical solutions, and arming teachers is not a technical solution, and it's off topic to this thread.

 

[MarneMath]

When I was a 19yr old kid in Iraq, I made a friend with one the local boys. He would follow my unit as we patrolled the streets trying to win the hearts and minds. We used to play soccer in the street and I'm sure it was a funny sight to watch a group of Americans in heavy armor chasing a soccer ball and being out scored by this boy and his friends. He was a good kid. I remember one day, we received reports of house borne IED. As set up a cordon around the house and waiting for EOD to make an assessment, I heard on the radio that they found bodies. My squad was tasked with providing overwatch while another squad secured the bodies. My fire team set up a position on a house and I placed my SAW ontop of my rucksack and located the other squad. At first, I didn't see it, but then it hit me. The bodies were kids. Some of them I knew from our time playing soccer. Their organs hanging outside their bodies with ears chopped off. As the squad began the recovery effort, I noticed that one of the bodies was my friend. That was my first introduction to how evil people can be. We later found out that these boys were killed for being friendly to infidel and thus not muslims. Kids killed for no reason.

I don't know if people are fundamentally evil or good. I stop caring after a while to be honest. However, I do know that people are capable of great evil. I do know that matters are never as simple as the talking heads on tv like to report. I learn that normal people if given the right catalyst can do awful things. I learned that a lot of times, we blame tv, games, weak laws, and mental conditions to hide the fact that, sometimes, people just do bad things intentionally. Evil exist and my heart goes out to the family. My world would end if I lost my daughter that way.

 

[Evo]

I think once we find out what the school district suggested for the killer that the mother opposed, to the point of taking him out of school and home schooling him, we'll have the answer if not be very close.

From what school friends have said, it's likely the school wanted him assessed for mental problems. Especially his talk of wanting to "blow things up".

I think the mother wanted to "cover up" her son's mental problems.

Mom: you want to "blow things up? I bought a bunch of guns, let's go to the shooting range". IMO to above. Except these are all things that happened, with the exception of the exact conversation. and THIS IS OFF TOPIC, ok? so let's not go there.

Rule of thumb, if it's part of the investigation, guns used, mother, mental illness, etc... that's ok.

See previous posts with links to the items in this post.

And before someone says again that I am against gun ownership, no I am just against certain guns, and artillery. And the capacity and the number. A homeowner doesn't need a highpowered arsenal to scare off a robber.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I don't know if people are fundamentally evil or good. I stop caring after a while to be honest. However, I do know that people are capable of great evil. I do know that matters are never as simple as the talking heads on tv like to report. I learn that normal people if given the right catalyst can do awful things. I learned that a lot of times, we blame tv, games, weak laws, and mental conditions to hide the fact that, sometimes, people just do bad things intentionally. Evil exist and my heart goes out to the family. My world would end if I lost my daughter that way.

I agree with you 100%. I have been saying all along that humans are truly terrible creatures and are capable of just horrible, horrible things. I really enjoyed your story by the way so thanks for that.

 

[MarneMath]

I think you might've missed my point entirely.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I think you might've missed my point entirely.

How so?

 

[MarneMath]

Because fact that the majority of people who read about this event feel terrible about this and know it is bad seems counterproductive to your claim that humans are truly terrible creatures. By taking isolated and extreme cases like this and then using it as an example as to why humans are bad is to broad. Can people do terrible things? Of course. However, the key point is that behavior people engage after such event is disingenuous. In the coming days, we'll blame everything from, the parents, the mental stability, the 'obvious signs of instability', tv, games, music, whatever anyone else thinks of, and just not state the obvious. People sometimes just do bad things because they want too. I think we do that because we have a need to feel as if there is a reason for it. In my experience, the reason is just because the person wanted too.