News Why Would an Adult Target Kindergarten Students in a Shooting?

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A tragic school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, has resulted in the deaths of 27 people, including 18 children, primarily in a kindergarten classroom. The gunman, who is reported dead, had connections to the school through his mother, a teacher there. The incident has sparked intense discussions about gun violence and the societal implications of such acts, with many expressing disbelief and horror at the targeting of young children. Some participants in the discussion highlight the need for urgent action to address gun-related issues in America, while others reflect on the broader nature of human violence. The emotional impact on families and communities is profound, with many struggling to comprehend the tragedy.
  • #201


Obviously being autistic was not the issue, we don't even know if he had autism spectrum disorder, he apparently had at least one mental disorder that caused him to be violent that would be outside of the autism spectrum. We don't even know if the mother had him diagnosed or sought professional help for him. She might have been ashamed and just hoped people didn't find out. IMO.

My question is why, since this mother obviously knew her son had serious problems, as is referenced in the article below, would she give him guns? If this woman was alive, I wouldn't be surprised if she would be charged for her role in giving her underaged mentally ill son access to such an enormous amount of ammunition in addition to the guns.

Nancy Lanza, whose gun collection was raided by her son Adam for Friday’s massacre at Sandy Hook school, was part of the “prepper” movement, which urges readiness for social chaos by hoarding supplies and training with weapons.

“She prepared for the worst,” her sister-in-law Marsha Lanza told reporters. “Last time we visited her in person, we talked about prepping – are you ready for what could happen down the line, when the economy collapses?”

It also emerged that Mrs Lanza had spoken of her fears less than a week before the attack that she was “losing” her son. “She said it was getting worse.
continued...

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/nancy_lanza_was_a_prepper/singleton/
 
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  • #202


There are degrees of preparation. (not that I ever thought of it that way) One of my great-aunts was never without at least 100# of flour and probably 50# of sugar, and a truck-load of canned goods. Her house was tidy and neat, but head down into the cellar and be prepared to be inundated with staple foods. Suffering through the Depression and struggling to feed one's kids can do that, I guess.

Her male progeny and my mother's brothers were well-armed. though. We needed to hunt to have meat. When I was old enough to be trusted, my father told me that I had only rarely eaten beef before then because he and my older male relatives routinely poached moose to feed us. They couldn't afford to buy us beef.
 
  • #203
turbo said:
There are degrees of preparation. (not that I ever thought of it that way) One of my great-aunts was never without at least 100# of flour and probably 50# of sugar, and a truck-load of canned goods. Her house was tidy and neat, but head down into the cellar and be prepared to be inundated with staple foods. Suffering through the Depression and struggling to feed one's kids can do that, I guess.

Her male progeny and my mother's brothers were well-armed. though. We needed to hunt to have meat. When I was old enough to be trusted, my father told me that I had only rarely eaten beef before then because he and my older male relatives routinely poached moose to feed us. They couldn't afford to buy us beef.
This has nothing to do with fearing a "doomsday" event, or as her sister described her
Marsha Lanza told the Chicago Sun-Times that Nancy Lanza wanted guns for protection. "She prepared for the worst," Marsha Lanza told the newspaper. "I didn't know that they (the guns) would be used on her."

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html

She was rich. Please don't make off topic posts.
 
  • #204


There is still a lot we on the outside do not know regarding the precursors to the tragedy of last Friday. It will take time for the authorities to do their investigation.

The tragedy, the loss of innocent life, is for many of us beyond words. Future actions will not resurrect those 20 children and 6 adults.

Beyond the grief, we perhaps can look forward for ways to prevent such occurrences in the future. That is the topic of a different thread.


Reflecting of the past 3 days, I think we need to maintain a healthy amount of skepticism at what is being reported in the media (the details changed so often, and erroneous information was presented), and to the extent possible, maintain a rational perspective while absorbing the news of a heart-breaking, gut-wrenching event.

This morning the NY Times published the following:
Gunman Took Big Supply of Ammunition to School After Killing Mother at Home
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/nyregion/sandy-hook-school-shooting-in-newtown.html
Lt. J. Paul Vance, a spokesman for the Connecticut State Police, said most of the shots were fired from a .223 Bushmaster semiautomatic carbine, a military-style assault weapon. Mr. Lanza was also carrying two semiautomatic pistols, a 10-millimeter Glock and a 9-millimeter Sig Sauer. A shotgun was found in the car.

The guns were legally acquired and registered by Ms. Lanza, who had sometimes taken her son to shooting ranges, according to law enforcement officials and her friends. Mr. Lanza, who former classmates said had had a developmental disorder, lived with his mother.

While Lieutenant Vance said he did not yet know how many bullets had been fired, he did say investigators recovered “numerous” empty 30-round magazines for the Bushmaster rifle.
So it appears that the gunman had at least 4 guns, one which was left in the car, and he used the other 3, and mostly the semi-automatic carbine (assuming that's the right term).

And the investigation is ongoing -
Gunman’s computers may be key in Connecticut school shooting investigation
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...-school-shooting-investigation-174438304.html
 
  • #206
Borg said:
The national news is reporting that the hard drive was removed and heavily damaged.
I read that in the media. We will have to wait for authorities to do their investigation. I also read the Adam Lanza used two bedrooms, and one was used to house his computer(s). Let's give them time.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/1...l-a-mystery-as-community-holds-first-funerals

A comment on APM's (NPR affiliate) Marketplace stated that it will take months to sort out all the details.


Meanwhile - In memory of the victims

Rachel D'Avino, 29, was a behavioral therapist who had just started working at Sandy Hook Elementary, according to her obituary published in the Waterbury Republican American. She was finishing her doctorate, and her boyfriend was getting ready to propose to her on Christmas Eve. Just days before Friday's massacre, D'Avino's 27-year-old boyfriend, Anthony Cerritelli, had asked her parents for permission to pop the question to their daughter. :frown:

The funerals of Noah Pozner and Jack Pinto were held today. Peace be upon them and their families.
http://www.dariennewsonline.com/local/article/Funerals-held-for-Noah-Pozner-Jack-Pinto-4123833.php

Image of 12 of 20 child victims: http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/R...0J9I00_RTROPTP_2_USA-SHOOTING-CONNECTICUT.JPG

Newtown Couple Vow to Live for Dead Daughter, Jessica Rekos
http://gma.yahoo.com/newtown-couple-vow-live-dead-daughter-113812032--abc-news-topstories.html

and neighbor, Gene Rosen, took 6 young survivors into his home
http://news.yahoo.com/neighbor-took-6-young-survivors-home-205020443.html
Rosen, a 69-year-old retired psychologist, took the four girls and two boys into his home, and over the next few hours gave them toys, listened to their stories and called their frantic parents.


Let me express my appreciation to JetBlue and Delta Airlines!
Noah's family wanted letters from his friends and family buried with him, and now thanks to social media and the compassion displayed by one airline, the Pozner family's wish will be granted.

On Sunday, Noah's aunt, Victoria Haller, tweeted to Delta and JetBlue asking for help getting letters from her 5-year-old son, who lives in Seattle with her, to Connecticut in time for today's funeral. Both airlines responded. Delta tweeted back a phone number to its cargo department. JetBlue tweeted Haller back asking for her number so they could get in touch with her.

. . . .
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trendin...-wish-sandy-hook-victim-family-202004360.html


Kindly ignore the members of Westboro Baptist who plan to picket the funerals. :rolleyes: :mad:
 
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  • #207


BillHampton said:
Evil people will do evil things. Like over in China where they seem to have a knife stabbing problem. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/14/china-school-stabbings/1770395/ A stabbing spree killed 20 and injured over 50 into 2010 , and now once again another stabbing takes place this time only injuring some students.

So basically, what I'm trying to get at is if you take away the guns. Disturbed people will find other ways to commit these acts of violence.

That has never been in question. The only salient point is how much damage can someone cause with a gun vs a knife.

It is true that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." But guns make it a whole lot easier for some people to kill a whole lot more people in a much shorter time.
 
  • #208
Evo said:
My question is why, since this mother obviously knew her son had serious problems, as is referenced in the article below, would she give him guns? If this woman was alive, I wouldn't be surprised if she would be charged for her role in giving her underaged mentally ill son access to such an enormous amount of ammunition in addition to the guns.
This may be part of the answer.
AP via Yahoo said:
Hanoman said Nancy Lanza told him she introduced guns to Adam as a way to teach him responsibility.

"Guns require a lot of respect, and she really tried to instill that responsibility within him, and he took to it. He loved being careful with them. He made it a source of pride," he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html
 
  • #209


Evil people will do evil things. Like over in China where they seem to have a knife stabbing problem. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...bings/1770395/ A stabbing spree killed 20 and injured over 50 into 2010 , and now once again another stabbing takes place this time only injuring some students.

So basically, what I'm trying to get at is if you take away the guns. Disturbed people will find other ways to commit these acts of violence.

Your statement that "a stabbing spree" killed 20 is incorrect. Five separate stabbing sprees in China in 2010 killed 20.

Other ways to commit these acts of violence can be deadly, but don't kill so many so fast.

Likewise, the deadliest (Michigan, 1927) included explosives. Yet they aren't used as often because they're harder to get than guns.
 
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  • #211


Adyssa said:
a)
d) make weapons less available

There is already an estimated 300 million guns in circulation. In a basic nutshell, the realistic answer is that making weapons less available is not an option.

We can however control the situation with bullets.
 
  • #212


Astronuc said:
I read that in the media. We will have to wait for authorities to do their investigation. I also read the Adam Lanza used two bedrooms, and one was used to house his computer(s). Let's give them time.
Just adding to the information. Unless he completely reinstalled the operating system and/or ran it past a large magnet before wrecking the hard drive, they should be able to recover a good amount of information. It will definitely take time though. I would guess that his internet trail will be the first thing that they'll try to piece together.
Astronuc said:
Kindly ignore the members of Westboro Baptist who plan to picket the funerals. :rolleyes: :mad:
Really? Do those people have no shame?
 
  • #213


Sympathy, prayers, etc..., doesn't do any thing. It's like saying, "I'm sorry for your loss." To a person that has lost someone, that comes off as empty and annoying (or at-least to me). We need to follow models that work and try for tight gun control laws. This isn't just going to stop because you're giving you're sympathy to the family in mourning.

I absolutely hate that these children were killed but without fierce action, this will just continue on and continue on.

Look what happens today, news breaks out over a family murder suicide. Weapon of choice? Gun.

3 year old accidentally shoots himself with a gun and dies which happened back in October, and a 4 year old, this past weekend shot himself in the face... More kids are killed at home, whether it'd be from an idiot killing them or from them accidentally shooting themselves. The weapon used is a gun.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ol-children-newtown-school-schooting/1775469/



Evil people will do evil things. Like over in China where they seem to have a knife stabbing problem. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...bings/1770395/ A stabbing spree killed 20 and injured over 50 into 2010 , and now once again another stabbing takes place this time only injuring some students.

So basically, what I'm trying to get at is if you take away the guns. Disturbed people will find other ways to commit these acts of violence.

People will try to find ways of committing acts of violence, that I don't disagree with. However, you're suggestion is, "don't blame the guns!" when the guns make it much easier for them to carry out those acts of violence? A person is not going to kill 20 people with a knife unless they are in a vegetative state, but even doing so it takes time and obvious skill with killing in order to do that. A person would have to be within striking distance and the attack must strike the target's vital organs in order to have a "successful" kill.

I don't want to see the conversation dissipate within a month and people just forget like Aurora, Colorado, and talk about "politicizing" the issue when bringing it up.

More kids are dying. 100+ died (under 11) in 2010 from firearms. They may not have all been shot at once, but over time the amount of deaths add up and if you brought that fact up, you'd be demonized for it as if you were the one killing those children.
 
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  • #216
"Our son had so much love to give to this world," Mark Barden said. "He was supposed to have a whole lifetime of bringing that light to the world."

http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/sandy-hook-elementary-victim-7-old-daniel-barden-230240146--abc-news-topstories.html
 
  • #217


Seriously, this thread isn't about gun control. Please leave discussions pro or con guns out. The NRA plans to make some "major statement" as they call it next week, perhaps that will be something that gives enough new reasons to restart yet another gun thread. The talk of new bans on assault rifles is increasing in the media, so I'm also considering moving some of the "gun posts" to another thread, but it's always the same thing, flamewars start, thread gets closed. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I am still in the process of finding and cleaning up recent posts, but it's going to require editing which I don't have time for right this minute. So please save the "you deleted my post, but left his" for tomorrow, it is always possible that I will miss posts.

Thank you.
 
  • #218


Evo said:
Seriously, this thread isn't about gun control. Please leave discussions pro or con guns out. The NRA plans to make some "major statement" as they call it next week, perhaps that will be something that gives enough new reasons to restart yet another gun thread. The talk of new bans on assault rifles is increasing in the media, so I'm also considering moving some of the "gun posts" to another thread, but it's always the same thing, flamewars start, thread gets closed. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I am still in the process of finding and cleaning up recent posts, but it's going to require editing which I don't have time for right this minute. So please save the "you deleted my post, but left his" for tomorrow, it is always possible that I will miss posts.

Thank you.

My apologies; edited my post.
 
  • #219


Evo said:
Seriously, this thread isn't about gun control. Please leave discussions pro or con guns out. The NRA plans to make some "major statement" as they call it next week, perhaps that will be something that gives enough new reasons to restart yet another gun thread.

The National Rifle Association on Tuesday broke its silence on last Friday's mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., denouncing the "horrific and senseless murders" and vowing to "help make sure this never happens again."

. . . .
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/...ess-newtown-massacre-214755738--politics.html
 
  • #220


Yes, the NRA plans to make a statement Friday.
 
  • #221
Six-year-old Arielle Pozner was in a classroom at Sandy Hook school when Adam Lanza burst into the school with his rifle and handguns. Her twin brother, Noah, was in a classroom down the hall.
http://gma.yahoo.com/siblings-sandy-hook-victims-face-survivors-guilt-182040434--abc-news-topstories.html
 
  • #222


NEWTOWN, Conn. – The gunman who slaughtered 20 children and six adults at a Connecticut elementary school may have snapped because his mother was planning to commit him to a psychiatric facility, according to a lifelong resident of the area who was familiar with the killer’s family and several of the victims’ families.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/1...sed-connecticut-madman-to-snap/#ixzz2FSZQnUvC
 
  • #223


IMP said:
At least some people are thinking about this logically:

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

That is logical thinking? It does not have logical basis, so I don't get how you can assert that it is logical for teachers to carry guns. That seems more like a mess than something that would avert crisis.

Reading some of the comments made it ever more laughable. "Well trained"

Just because you're well trained with a gun does not mean you are well trained under such situations liken to what happened in Aurora, Colorado or Newtown. In addition, here is a scenario:

Violence breaks, gun shots heard, perpetuator runs into the gym, whilst one teacher standing over kids on the ground. A math teacher runs out with his gun, assumes the other teacher has snapped, and begins shooting. Now all the teachers are shooting whilst the perpetuator is in the gymnasium slaughtering more people.

In other words, these teachers are trained to be teachers not police officers or swat team members. Their emotional stability and awareness in such situations is just the emotional knee-jerk reaction any common-day person would have. Bad idea, and I would never allow my children to go to a school with teachers carrying guns (if I had kids).

How about paying more taxes for police or security personnel? How about more safety precautions in case incidents like these happen?
 
  • #224


Mentalist said:
That is logical thinking? It does not have logical basis, so I don't get how you can assert that it is logical for teachers to carry guns. That seems more like a mess than something that would avert crisis.

Careful, logic is not set in stone, it is very much dependent on what a person thinks should be done and how.

Just because you're well trained with a gun does not mean you are well trained under such situations liken to what happened in Aurora, Colorado or Newtown. In addition, here is a scenario:

Violence breaks, gun shots heard, perpetuator runs into the gym, whilst one teacher standing over kids on the ground. A math teacher runs out with his gun, assumes the other teacher has snapped, and begins shooting. Now all the teachers are shooting whilst the perpetuator is in the gymnasium slaughtering more people.

You bring up a valid point. Allowing teachers to carry guns is not guaranteed to actually be any safer. Would more people end up injured or killed due to accidental discharges or shootings? Will there be teachers who threaten students at gunpoint when they get get out of line because they don't know how else to handle them? I'm sure there are plenty of others.

In other words, these teachers are trained to be teachers not police officers or swat team members. Their emotional stability and awareness in such situations is just the emotional knee-jerk reaction any common-day person would have. Bad idea, and I would never allow my children to go to a school with teachers carrying guns (if I had kids).

I think you may underestimate their ability to handle the situation, but I do agree that there are likely to be "friendly fire" situations pop up.

How about paying more taxes for police or security personnel? How about more safety precautions in case incidents like these happen?

How about realizing this is an extremely unlikely incident and not wasting the money? I believe the other thread on this incident ballparked an estimate for replacing the doors in schools with bulletproof ones at like 2 billions dollars or something. And I think that's just the door cost! Labor costs would probably be at least as much if not more. (I've seen some of these installed. They aren't always easy)

Plus you not only have to figure out what would be effective, but also whether you want your children to go to school everyday and deal with whatever new safeguards are put in place. I say this because some people advocate checkpoints and other things that would make schools more like prisons...or airports.

It's very easy to fall into the "my/our children's lives are worth any price" realm. It's much more difficult to take a step back and look at the bigger picture and figure out what works and is also feasible compared to what is just a waste of time and money.
 
  • #225


One of my associates grew up in the Newtown area. Her niece attends the middle school and was in class when it happened. She confirmed it's a very small and close community where everyone either knows each other or are related and every family is affected. I asked if her sister planned to relocate out of the area and was surprised by the response. She said if this could happen in Newtown, where could they go that would be safer?

I had no response.
 
  • #226


enosis_ said:
She said if this could happen in Newtown, where could they go that would be safer?

I had no response.

Big city schools with real police and physical security measures.
http://www.laspd.com/about.html
 
  • #227


Reuters on Yahoo said:
The family of Principal Dawn Hochsprung invited mourners to visit at a local funeral home on Wednesday afternoon, though the burial was due to be private at an undisclosed time.

Another of the teachers, Victoria Soto, was among those to be buried at a funeral on Wednesday.

Funerals were also scheduled for 6-year-old Charlotte Bacon, 7-year-old Daniel Barden and 6-year-old Caroline Previdi, while the family of 7-year-old Chase Kowalski invited mourners to a public visitation and prayer vigil.

The surviving children from Sandy Hook Elementary faced another day at home as school authorities and parents made plans for an eventual return to a different location - the unused Chalk Hill School in nearby Monroe, where a sign across the street read, "Welcome Sandy Hook Elementary!"

. . . .
http://news.yahoo.com/schools-reopen-newtown-washington-talks-gun-control-002828916.html
 
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  • #230


Thomas Jefferson on The Constitution:

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."
 
  • #231


gravenewworld said:
Thomas Jefferson on The Constitution:
"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors."

This must be part of the reason Texas doesn't like including Thomas Jefferson in their curriculum. (But it is important for Texas school children to learn about the NRA.)
 
  • #232


Demonize the entire state of Texas over some idiot like Barton? That's important to the topic. :rolleyes:
 
  • #233


WABC-TV Ch 7 said:
James Mattioli especially loved recess and math, and his family described him as a "numbers guy" who came up with insights beyond his years to explain the relationship between numbers. He particularly loved the concept of googolplex, which a friend taught him. He was born four weeks before his due date, and his family often joked that he came into the world early because he was hungry. They wrote in his obituary that 6-year-old James, fondly called 'J,' loved hamburgers with ketchup, his Dad's omelets with bacon and his Mom's French toast. He often asked to stop at Subway and wanted to know how old he needed to be to order a footlong sandwich. He loved sports and wore shorts and T-shirts no matter the weather. He was a loud and enthusiastic singer and once asked, "How old do I have to be to sing on a stage?" His family recalled that he was an early-riser who was always ready to get up and go. He and his older sister were the best of friend. He was a thoughtful and considerate child, recently choosing to forgo a gift for himself and use the money to buy his grandfather a mug for Christmas.

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s480x480/9703_10151208603359091_1417850033_n.jpg


Profiles of the Newtown shooting victims
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/northern_suburbs&id=8921731
 
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  • #234


Too sweet.
 
  • #235
At least nine funerals and wakes were held Wednesday . . . .

On Thursday, five funerals and six wakes were planned, and more tributes were scheduled for Friday and Saturday.

"The first few days, all you heard were helicopters," said Dr. Joseph Young, an optometrist who attended one funeral and would go to several more. "Now at my office all I hear is the rumble of motorcycle escorts and funeral processions going back and forth throughout the day."

. . . .
http://news.yahoo.com/funerals-become-sad-routine-newtown-084830536.html
 
  • #236


jedishrfu said:
A possible motive for the rampage came out in the Huff Post article today. They believe his mother was in the process of committing him and that he became angry when he found out.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-motive_n_2329508.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

In the article is says, "It's unclear whether Adam's mother, Nancy Lanza, was really filing the paperwork, because court officials say that such records are sealed."

Why do such records remain sealed once a person is dead?
 
  • #237


SixNein said:
There is already an estimated 300 million guns in circulation. In a basic nutshell, the realistic answer is that making weapons less available is not an option.

We can however control the situation with bullets.
Australia's gun buyback appears to have gathered 20% (600K) of the existing weapons.
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia
 
  • #238
BobG said:
This must be part of the reason Texas doesn't like including Thomas Jefferson in their curriculum. (But it is important for Texas school children to learn about the NRA.)
That's a gross over generalization, not supported by that NYT link, which specifies in respect to Jefferson only a list of writers who inspired subsequent revolutions.

Edit:
Written in response to some earlier NYT reporting on the Tx SBE:

Gail Lowe said:
To say the State Board of Education has excluded Thomas Jefferson from the curriculum framework is irresponsible and untruthful.

Jefferson not only penned the words of the Declaration of Independence, served as the third President of the United States and was father of the University of Virginia, but his promotion of the ideals of states’ rights and a limited federal government have permeated our nation for centuries. No study of American history would be complete without his inclusion.
http://www.texasinsider.org/poor-reporting-by-news-media-thomas-jefferson-vs-texas-social-studies-standards/

Which does not sound like words of someone that would justify the NYT's claim about Jefferson, that he is "not well liked among conservatives on the board ..."
 
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  • #242


Hrmm... I've realized that I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the title of this thread, as it emphasizes the perpetrator over the victims.
 
  • #243


Pythagorean said:
Hrmm... I've realized that I'm somewhat uncomfortable with the title of this thread, as it emphasizes the perpetrator over the victims.
It was meant to be about the perpetrator.

Someone just decided to start adding news about the victims. That might have been best left out of this thread and to the news to keep them separate. But I'll allow it unless more people are against it.
 
  • #244


nitsuj said:
I've seen very well written posts by you in the past, with thoughtfulness & sensible logic. However you comment here...simply out of context.

This isn't about some third world country governed via violence & fear. It is not how things are done here.


If there was ever a "Good" reason for a public stoning...it's preventing this from ever happening again. (please America do not put armed guards in PS)
The justice argument works a little for me. I am not arguing against extreme penalties per se. Yes, my internal justice meter says that some miscreants deserve extreme punishment, maybe more than stoning. I do accept the justice argument. Punishments appropriate to a crime is good in theory. However, like gun control it is not a panacea.

Lanza anticipated you. He killed himself. By doing so, he avoided serious penalty. A lot of the mass murderers now are immediately killing themselves.

Extreme penalties (death, torture) aren't really a deterrent for people who are willing to kill themselves anyway. This type of suicide-murder has been going on for some time. This type of suicide-murder may be becoming more common because of the Islamo-fascist suicide bombers. People see that most of them avoided society's anger. Extreme penalties don't work very effectively as a deterrent when people think they can escape the consequences of their actions.

Extreme penalties may help innocent people a little. It probably deters the professional killer a little bit. Of course, a true professional stands very little chance of getting caught. However, it may stop some from starting out. Extreme penalties may make some of the families feel better. I think this is an important consideration. Some families will feel worse. However, you may be partly right.

I wouldn't be so set against stoning and hanging if I didn't see how our Middle Eastern "friends" use it. They do manage to eliminate most crime in their countries. They hang young girls for sarcasm. They hang women for adultery. I am not even sure most of those women are guilty of adultery. They think that capital punishment applied in such a arbitrary way reduces crime. It probably does. I am not sure that capital punishment would reduce crime if it wasn't used in such a arbitrary way.

Society gets really upset when it turns out that an innocent person gets an extreme penalty. It is impossible to eliminate the chance of a false conviction without letting a lot of evil people free. When one tries to be so careful that no one innocent is convicted, then the deterrence goes away. The murderer knows that he has a good chance of escaping when the laws are too careful. I don't know what the balance is between saving people with deterrence.

Note that there are many psychopaths who are good at shifting the blame to other people. They get an innocent part to either take the blame, or even just share the blame. The extra damage done on the innocent person is part of the turn on by the psychopath. The more pain the innocent person gets, the more thrill the psychopath gets. So an extreme penalty can also be an incentive to some pyscho's. It adds to the thrill.


People who kill themselves have escaped punishment. We could see a dozen happenings like what happened in that school, and not catch a single one of them alive. On the occasion that we do catch one, the very publicity associated with his punishment highlights the fact that the others got away with it "completely".

Some one who does something not nearly as bad could be stoned because a law was set up while people were still mad at Lanza. If he later turns out to be innocent, there will be this big hue and cry to remove capital punishment altogether.

So I would be really careful about setting up extreme penalties while everyone is angry. I am not against capital punishment. However, gut reactions on such a matter are as dangerous as people like Lanza.
 
  • #245
Evo said:
It was meant to be about the perpetrator.

Someone just decided to start adding news about the victims. That might have been best left out of this thread and to the news to keep them separate. But I'll allow it unless more people are against it.

I just mean that I don't think the perp should get so much attention.
 
  • #246
Pythagorean said:
I just mean that I don't think the perp should get so much attention.
I'd have to agree with you. While the crimes are heinous, complete annonimity might discourage copy cats. If no one knows who they are, could be less of a compelling reason to do in some cases.
 
  • #247


Evo said:
Someone just decided to start adding news about the victims.
I'm guilty. Firstly, I think the victims are more important than the perpetrator. Secondly, in the first 24 hours or so, there was a lot of misinformation and hearsay, and mostly speculation about the event, the perpetrator and his motives, as well as a lot of commentary about access to guns or gun control.

American-born Nicole and her British-born husband Ian previously spoke about their 'gorgeous angel' who was found dead in the arms of his favourite teacher, Anne Marie Murphy.

The special needs teacher, who was laid to rest following her own funeral in New York on Thursday, had tried to shield the young boy from the bullets, but also lost her life.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ms-Funeral-Dylan-Hockley-6.html#ixzz2FoIY1Un5

Funerals were also held for Olivia Engel, 6, Madeline Hsu, 6, Grace McDonnell, 7

On Saturday, services for Josephine Grace, Ana Marquez-Greene, Emilie Parker, which I believe are the last three of the funerals.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/22/newtown-victim-funerals-saturday_n_2351419.html


I should point out that this thread was a tough job to moderate, and Evo took it on. I think she did a decent job.
 
  • #248
Evo said:
I'd have to agree with you. While the crimes are heinous, complete annonimity might discourage copy cats. If no one knows who they are, could be less of a compelling reason to do in some cases.
The media would never have that.

In the guise of journalism they run with these things, creating "profile of a killer" and painting them in whichever way draws viewers, readers, etc

Lanza got what he wanted, to be paid attention to - it seems it's a shame he wasn't taken care of before this happened. Those kids might still be here.

This is more a case of mental healthcare than anything, really. My resolution would be to pump billions into mental health research and social programs to help mothers, like Lanza's who may be unable to cope with the needs of their child. Then maybe we can start saving children from their minds, and others from the guns those minds could wield.
 
  • #249


Astronuc said:
I'm guilty. Firstly, I think the victims are more important than the perpetrator. Secondly, in the first 24 hours or so, there was a lot of misinformation and hearsay, and mostly speculation about the event, the perpetrator and his motives, as well as a lot of commentary about access to guns or gun control.
It just feels creepy, to me, to include the victims in the same thread. The victims should be given more respect. But maybe it's just me that doesn't want them thrown together with discussion of their killer like this, out of respect for them.
 
  • #250
encorp said:
The media would never have that.

In the guise of journalism they run with these things, creating "profile of a killer" and painting them in whichever way draws viewers, readers, etc
Many in the media seemed to exploit the story.

Lanza got what he wanted, to be paid attention to - it seems it's a shame he wasn't taken care of before this happened. Those kids might still be here.
There are some hints and a lot of unanswered questions regarding Lanza. We'll probably never know. He apparently did a good job of destroying his computer hard drives. Hence, we can probably reasonably conclude a strong intent and motivation.

Mental health officials and criminologists struggle with the inability to develop a predictive capability on any particular individual.
 

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