Will steam generated inside an oven not break it?

[k.udhay]

Disclaimer first: Though the question is around cooking, IMO it certainly is to with physics / engineering. Yet, if the admins find this post inappropriate, pl. delete it.

I am planning to make some rice cakes which is prepared by steaming a mix of rice powder and water. Because I don't have the special cooker used for that at my current location, I though of using the electric oven in my house. While google search tells me it is possible to use oven as a steamer, I am a bit scared of two reasons:

1. The procedure in my mind is by placing the dough and a tray of water inside the oven (shown in pic.):

Once the oven starts generating steam, will it not create a high pressure inside? This looks more like a pressure cooker to me. How do ovens handle this extreme force? I see the front door is made of glass.

2. The steam generated will settle on the walls and ceiling of the oven. Does it cause any problem to the oven. Once cooled down, they will drip down as water. Is there a draining system?

 

[Lnewqban]

Not a good idea, in my opinion.
The dough will receive radiation heat in addition to any cooking effect from 100°C steam.
Not sure how well isolated from the steam the electrical staff is.
Pressure may build up inside the cavity.
No place to go for condensation.

 

[BWV]

How is this different than, say, roasting a turkey with water at the bottom of the roasting pan, or any number of casserole type things where steam is released while it cooks?

 

[k.udhay]

How is this different than, say, roasting a turkey with water at the bottom of the roasting pan, or any number of casserole type things where steam is released while it cooks?

I really have no idea. And that's exactly my question.

 

[k.udhay]

Not a good idea, in my opinion.
The dough will receive radiation heat in addition to any cooking effect from 100°C steam.
Not sure how well isolated from the steam the electrical staff is.
Pressure may build up inside the cavity.
No place to go for condensation.

Radiation is not wanted here. I agree that this is a bad idea then.

 

[BWV]

What about those stovetop bamboo steamers which sit on top of a pan of water, like you make Chinese dumplings with?

 

[Borek]

No idea what kind of the oven you are talking about, but unless it is really airtight when closed there is no way for the pressure to go up. Most ovens I can think of will just freely release the steam long before any real pressure builds up.

 

[k.udhay]

What about those stovetop bamboo steamers which sit on top of a pan of water, like you make Chinese dumplings with?

Hi... I am really sorry, I don't know the dishes or recipes you are talking about. The way I used to cook these rice cakes is by allowing a continuous steam leakage. Do ovens also have that leakage possibility?

 

[k.udhay]

No idea what kind of the oven you are talking about, but unless it is really airtight when closed there is no way for the pressure to go up. Most ovens I can think of will just freely release the steam long before any real pressure builds up.

Is there a way we can check? Are these vents (or leakage points) visible?

 

[Borek]

Can you post a picture of the oven?

In most cases there are no vents nor anything like that, as the lid itself is not even remotely airtight, nor is the case. Trying to pump up typical oven is a bit like using colander to carry water, plenty of small holes and leaks that won't let to keep the gas in.

Compare typical oven with a pressure cooker. The latter is built of a single piece of metal, with a carefully shaped lid and a strong seal. Otherwise it wouldn't work.

 

[BWV]

Hi... I am really sorry, I don't know the dishes or recipes you are talking about. The way I used to cook these rice cakes is by allowing a continuous steam leakage. Do ovens also have that leakage possibility?

 

[russ_watters]

I really have no idea. And that's exactly my question.

If this is a normal oven, it is not a sealed pressure vessel. It is incapable of holding pressure. The extra air/steam volume simply escapes through the door seam.

Try this exercise:
-Pull on the door handle. Estimate the force it took to crack open.
-Divide by half the area of the door to get the pressure. You'll see it is tiny.

For condensation, it should not be an issue because the steam is being generated slowly and shouldn't cause the humidity to be high enough for condensation on the hot, insulated walls.

 

[JT Smith]

Your oven isn't airtight. Pretty much everything you might think to bake has a lot of moisture. And even lacking that the air itself would expand when heated. It's vented, trust me.

Just the same, a stovetop steamer sounds like a better way to do it.

 

[russ_watters]

Can you post a picture of the oven?

In most cases there are no vents nor anything like that, as the lid itself is not even remotely airtight, nor is the case. Trying to pump up typical oven is a bit like using colander to carry water, plenty of small holes and leaks that won't let to keep the gas in.

Quick clarification: for insulation and fire safety i would hope a typical oven is an airtight, steel chamber -- except for the softly-closing, hinged door.

 

[hmmm27]

Making steam in an oven sounds like a decent way to clean the oven.

 

[DrClaude]

Quick clarification: for insulation and fire safety i would hope a typical oven is an airtight, steel chamber -- except for the softly-closing, hinged door.

I have never seen an oven that is not ventilated. For example:

 

[k.udhay]

Can you post a picture of the oven?

In most cases there are no vents nor anything like that, as the lid itself is not even remotely airtight, nor is the case. Trying to pump up typical oven is a bit like using colander to carry water, plenty of small holes and leaks that won't let to keep the gas in.

Compare typical oven with a pressure cooker. The latter is built of a single piece of metal, with a carefully shaped lid and a strong seal. Otherwise it wouldn't work.

Clear! I am planning to take a trial today. Will update here tomorrow :)

 

[russ_watters]

I have never seen an oven that is not ventilated. For example:
View attachment 269935

Is that an electric? Clearly a gas oven needs ventilation, but I can't think of a reason to ventilate an electric oven.

 

[DrClaude]

Is that an electric? Clearly a gas oven needs ventilation, but I can't think of a reason to ventilate an electric oven.

Yes, electric. See

 

[Mark44]

Once the oven starts generating steam, will it not create a high pressure inside?

No.

Clearly a gas oven needs ventilation, but I can't think of a reason to ventilate an electric oven.

There is a sealing gasket on the oven door, but it's not airtight.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, electric. See

Hmm -- air circulation for uniform heating. Interesting. I wonder if that applies to convection ovens too (probably, if they can operate in a non-convection mode).

 

[Astronuc]

Once the oven starts generating steam, will it not create a high pressure inside? This looks more like a pressure cooker to me. How do ovens handle this extreme force? I see the front door is made of glass.

As Mark44 inferred, as long as the interior volume of the oven communicates with the external atmosphere (air) outside (it's not air tight), the inside pressure will equilibrate with the outside (1 atm). The steam from water will be at saturated conditions (as 1 atm) while some steam will be superheated if the oven is above 212°F (100°C).

 

[DrClaude]

Hmm -- air circulation for uniform heating. Interesting. I wonder if that applies to convection ovens too (probably, if they can operate in a non-convection mode).

I have a convection oven and it is ventilated, not as in the picture above, but through a dedicated vent near the back of the top, the black thing you can see in this picture of a similar model:

 

[Borek]

Quick clarification: for insulation and fire safety i would hope a typical oven is an airtight, steel chamber -- except for the softly-closing, hinged door.

Steel chamber - yes, but not very airtight. All ovens I have seen were made from metal sheets screwed to metal frame, I don't remember gaskets nor even silicon sealing. So they were definitely tight enough to keep fire inside in case of some culinary disaster, but not tight enough to keep any elevated pressure - plenty of tiny gaps between elements.

 

[Astronuc]

Steel chamber - yes, but not very airtight. All ovens I have seen were made from metal sheets screwed to metal frame, I don't remember gaskets nor even silicon sealing. So they were definitely tight enough to keep fire inside in case of some culinary disaster, but not tight enough to keep any elevated pressure - plenty of tiny gaps between elements.

Mostly keeps the heat in, but can slowly release steam or smoke, as I have witnessed.

 

[JT Smith]

An airtight oven would be a pressure cooker unless you were "cooking" something with little or no moisture. What kind of food would that be? Even dry air would typically increase to something like 1 bar gauge in a fully sealed oven. That's an oven that would need pretty strong walls and some sort of pressure release safety valve. That's an oven you'd want to return to the store.

 

[k.udhay]

Thank you all! The rice cake turned better than I expected. This forum has now given me an easy and quick method to repeat my traditional food in a new place :)

Like @Lnewqban said, the upper layer of the cake was a bit hard perhaps because of the radiation it received. I plan to cover it with a well water-soaked cloth next time.

Because of the anxiety followed by excitement, I forgot to take pictures :(

Wish you a nice day!

 

[256bits]

the upper layer of the cake was a bit hard perhaps because of the radiation it received. I plan to cover it with a well water-soaked cloth next time.

Not radiation - hot air circulation.

Unless you had the top element on also.
You should have Bake and Broil settings for the oven.
https://recipes.howstuffworks.com/tools-and-techniques/question228.htm

 

[Borek]

The rice cake turned better than I expected.

Sigh. You were given so much help, people spent so much time discussing your oven, and you have the audacity to claim the cake is good and to not post the recipe? Shame on you!

 

[k.udhay]

Sigh. You were given so much help, people spent so much time discussing your oven, and you have the audacity to claim the cake is good and to not post the recipe? Shame on you!

Honestly, I am pretty sure this won't be an interesting taste to the people other than the south part of India [] Yet I will provide a link:

https://simmertoslimmer.com/how-to-make-soft-idlis/

P.s. - This is not a sweet one. Apologies if you were deceived by the word "cake"

 

[mfb]

Quick clarification: for insulation and fire safety i would hope a typical oven is an airtight, steel chamber -- except for the softly-closing, hinged door.

With such a design heating the oven (reducing the amount of air inside) and then letting it cool would create an under-pressure in the oven, which would either break the glass or make it impossible to open the door. Even natural variations in the air pressure would make the oven unusable on days with a higher atmospheric pressure. You need some opening that can keep the pressure inside at atmospheric pressure independent of the direction of the pressure difference.

 

[hutchphd]

I have a convection oven and it is ventilated, not as in the picture above, but through a dedicated vent near the back of the top, the black thing you can see in this picture of a similar model

The fan in a convection oven typically recirculates the air. Turbulent airflow conducts heat much more quickly than laminar flow at the surface of, say, a turkey (or anything). That is why convection ovens cook much faster.
Yes all ovens are vented (I'm sure old ones more so than new). I think making steamed buns in an oven should work but be sure there is a pan of water intercepting any radiant heat and keep the oven only marginally above boiling (maybe 250F). Preheat it with the water in place . I always use a bamboo steamer.

 

[russ_watters]

With such a design heating the oven (reducing the amount of air inside) and then letting it cool would create an under-pressure in the oven, which would either break the glass or make it impossible to open the door. Even natural variations in the air pressure would make the oven unusable on days with a higher atmospheric pressure. You need some opening that can keep the pressure inside at atmospheric pressure independent of the direction of the pressure difference.

The door. The door is not sealed. So even the rest of the oven were airtight, it could not hold positive or negative pressure. On mine, the "gasket" is a woven wire "fabric".

Also on closer inspection it has a 4"gap at the bottom.

I do wonder how much energy could be saved if an electric oven were unventilated and just used a fan for convection.

 

[Wrichik Basu]

Honestly, I am pretty sure this won't be an interesting taste to the people other than the south part of India

Are you talking about idli? If yes, I am from Kolkata and I find them tasty too.

If your electric oven is a microwave oven (I haven't read thoroughly through the whole thread), then it is not airtight. Many years back, I put in some food in our microwave for warming, and I did not remove the paper container that it came in. After some time, I found smoke rushing out of the microwave -- a part of the container had caught fire from the heating element on top of the microwave cavity.

Our microwave came with Idli plates. There is a large bowl, within which one can put water, and then put the idli plates filled with batter inside the bowl, above the water. The construction of the plates and the bowl is such that if the proper amount of water is poured in the bowl, they will not touch the idli plates. We tried it out once and the idlis were quite good, and were not burnt.