- #1
Wormole and reactionless drive
- Context: Graduate
- Thread starter Edi
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Discussion Overview
The discussion revolves around the concept of wormholes and their potential application in creating a reactionless drive. Participants explore the mechanics of how a wormhole might function, particularly in relation to momentum conservation and the implications of using such a theoretical construct for propulsion. The conversation includes speculative ideas about the nature of wormholes, energy requirements, and hypothetical scenarios involving subatomic particles.
Discussion Character
- Exploratory
- Debate/contested
- Conceptual clarification
- Technical explanation
Main Points Raised
- One participant questions the mechanics of a wormhole, asking if it involves two ends or one, and what causes the water (or other substance) to exit the wormhole.
- Another participant suggests that the proposed mechanism violates laws of physics, particularly momentum conservation, and challenges the feasibility of a reactionless drive.
- A participant argues that wormholes, by their nature, allow for movement without losing momentum, raising questions about the implications of momentum loss.
- Some participants express skepticism about the existence of wormholes without massive objects and discuss the theoretical requirements for creating one.
- There are references to the need for significant energy or mass to create a wormhole, with one participant speculating about the properties of a micro wormhole and its implications for mass and energy.
- Another participant mentions that while wormholes have not been observed, they are a topic of theoretical interest in physics, particularly in relation to General Relativity.
- Discussion includes the idea that some scenarios may involve wormhole mouths acquiring negative mass, which raises further questions about the nature of mass and energy in such contexts.
Areas of Agreement / Disagreement
Participants express a range of views, with no consensus reached on the feasibility of the proposed wormhole-driven propulsion system. Some agree on the theoretical implications of wormholes, while others challenge the assumptions made about their properties and the conservation of momentum.
Contextual Notes
Participants note that the discussion is speculative and hinges on theoretical constructs that have not been empirically validated. There are unresolved questions regarding the nature of wormholes, the requirements for their existence, and the implications of their properties on momentum and energy conservation.
- #2
russ_watters
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I can't make any sense of that pic.
- #3
HallsofIvy
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Do you have two wormholes with something (water?) going in one end and out the other or is that two ends of the same wormhole? What is causing the water to come out of the wormhole? What happens as your "ship" moves away from the wormhole?
- #4
Edi
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Well, it is supposed to be one wormhole with both ends in the "ship". Watter, for example, is pumped in the lower hole and it comes out the upper, other end of the hole. What causes it to come out? Inertia (spell?)?
When the pump pushes watter out of it self it recoils back, but the watters kinetic energy isn't absorbed by the back of the "ship", but instead comes out the other end of the wormhole and is absorbed by the front of the "ship".
Now, this can't really be, because it violates some laws and would make "reaction-less drive" possible. What I want to know is where is this wrong, so no laws are broken. (?)
And the wormhole is supposed to be ON/IN the "ship".
When the pump pushes watter out of it self it recoils back, but the watters kinetic energy isn't absorbed by the back of the "ship", but instead comes out the other end of the wormhole and is absorbed by the front of the "ship".
Now, this can't really be, because it violates some laws and would make "reaction-less drive" possible. What I want to know is where is this wrong, so no laws are broken. (?)
And the wormhole is supposed to be ON/IN the "ship".
- #5
Vanadium 50
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"Please help me with my perpetual motion machine" is not something that this forum is well suited for - even if the help is trying to understand where it's wrong. There's a reason why perpetual motion machine threads seem to get locked quickly.
You've postulated a quasi-magical pair of disks where something going into one with momentum p comes out of the other with momentum -p, all without changing the disks' momentum. Why are you surprised that this doesn't conserve momentum?
You've postulated a quasi-magical pair of disks where something going into one with momentum p comes out of the other with momentum -p, all without changing the disks' momentum. Why are you surprised that this doesn't conserve momentum?
- #6
Edi
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Because its a wormhole - you don't hit anything when going in one, you don't touch anything. Just go through it without losing momentum. If one loses momentum, where does it go?
I'm not saying this is true, just want to know what and how.
I'm not saying this is true, just want to know what and how.
- #7
m.starkov
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I guess all you have to understand is that such holes can't exist w/o massive object.
But if you will get one (massive object) then all momentum will come to it :)
But if you will get one (massive object) then all momentum will come to it :)
- #8
Vanadium 50
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Edi said:
Because it's a fribbitz.
Because it's a globschnurz.
You can always postulate something with unphysical properties and give it a name. That doesn't make its properties any more physical.
- #9
Phrak
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Edi said:
How old are you, Edi?
These GENTLEMEN might be more inclined to help, if you had a better drawing. I can't understand it, myself.
- #10
HallsofIvy
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Aww, c'mon. Who are you calling a GENTLEMAN!
- #11
Phrak
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HallsofIvy said:Aww, c'mon. Who are you calling a GENTLEMAN!
Sorry. I was overreacting.
- #12
Edi
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Ok, so its a fast sketch. I understand it 
17 btw.
A large wormhole might need a lot of mass/ energy, but how about i micro one? Subatomic level. And the water is not water, but a photon, for example.
The mass... the mass... that rises another question. To create a wormhole one would need to put a lot of energy/ mass in small enough space, but where does that energy go? Does the "mouth" of a wormhole have mass?
17 btw.
A large wormhole might need a lot of mass/ energy, but how about i micro one? Subatomic level. And the water is not water, but a photon, for example.
The mass... the mass... that rises another question. To create a wormhole one would need to put a lot of energy/ mass in small enough space, but where does that energy go? Does the "mouth" of a wormhole have mass?
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- #13
Relay
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I've never seen a real wormhole like the one everbody is talking about here. The only wormholes I've seen was when I was worm picking oh so many years ago. It wasn't a bad job, it paid well for the time. Anyhow, has anybody actually seen a real life step in here and step out on Mars type of wormhole. What are the chances of a wormhole forming at the center of the sun and the other end in Florida someplace. I could never wrap my brain around this concept.
- #14
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Wormholes have not actually been observed, but are - not exactly a prediction, but rather perhaps a distant possibility, according to General Relativity. For instance, the Moris-Thorne wormhole.
They are of enough theoretical interest to have inspired numerous scientfic papers which investiage their predicted properties.
Of course, those sorts of wormholes that are predicted as possible by GR conserve momentum when they are in a closed system, though they do have other strange properties.
I suppose I should add that the property of conserving momentum implies that the space-drive discussed by the original poster wouldn't work, in case it isn't obvious.
They are of enough theoretical interest to have inspired numerous scientfic papers which investiage their predicted properties.
Of course, those sorts of wormholes that are predicted as possible by GR conserve momentum when they are in a closed system, though they do have other strange properties.
I suppose I should add that the property of conserving momentum implies that the space-drive discussed by the original poster wouldn't work, in case it isn't obvious.
- #15
JesseM
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I remember pervect had an interesting post about wormholes and energy conservation in post #6 of this thread...
- #16
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Some scenarios involving wormholes have one of the mouths acquiring negative mass, since when an object (possibly just interstellar gas) exits a wormhole, that end of the wormhole mouth loses mass (ADM mass).
This gets weird quickly. I haven't seen any good theoretical resolution to this issue. Personally I find it hard to believe that negative mass exists, and no such thing has actually been observed.
I'm not really sure if anyone has looked for negative mass wormhole mouths in any of the large number of gravitational lensing studies that have been done - though I know there was either a paper or a letter that was written about the issue by Cramer, Benford, et al.
This gets weird quickly. I haven't seen any good theoretical resolution to this issue. Personally I find it hard to believe that negative mass exists, and no such thing has actually been observed.
I'm not really sure if anyone has looked for negative mass wormhole mouths in any of the large number of gravitational lensing studies that have been done - though I know there was either a paper or a letter that was written about the issue by Cramer, Benford, et al.
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