Would a Universe be considered part of the standard model?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the standard model of particle physics and the concept of the universe, particularly whether the universe can be viewed as a composition of forces similar to how particles are composed of subatomic particles. Participants explore the implications of altering the "mixture of forces" in the universe and its potential effects on the existence of different universes.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that just as particles are made up of subatomic particles, the universe might be viewed as a mixture of forces, questioning if altering these forces could lead to different possible universes.
  • Others express confusion regarding the term "mixture of forces," seeking clarification on its meaning and implications.
  • One participant asserts that the standard model identifies fundamental particles and emphasizes that all particles in the standard model are subatomic, challenging the notion of sub-particles.
  • Another participant explains that while the standard model and general relativity can describe the universe on large scales, gravity is the dominant force, with other interactions being less significant at such scales.
  • There is mention of the multiverse concept, suggesting that variations in the strengths of fundamental interactions could lead to different universes, although this idea is met with some skepticism regarding its more speculative aspects.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the concept of a "mixture of forces," with some seeking clarification and others challenging the terminology. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these ideas on the understanding of the universe.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the ambiguity surrounding the term "mixture of forces" and the varying interpretations of how fundamental interactions relate to the structure of the universe.

NWH
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From my basic understanding of the standard model it tries to identify the different kinds of particles, understand their functions and their subsequent sub atomic particles. But as particles and forces break down into smaller components, do they also build up into bigger components? For example; just like a particle is built up of a mixture of sub atomic particles, is our universe is built up of a mixture of forces? Can we look at the universe and its forces in the same way we look at a particle? As in if we changed the mixture of forces can we predict the outcome and say that a different selection of possible universe potentially exists out there?
 
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I don't understand what you mean with "mixture of forces".
Without gravity, and if the SM is complete, it would (at least in theory) allow to predict the time-evolution of the whole universe.
 
NWH said:
From my basic understanding of the standard model it tries to identify the different kinds of particles, understand their functions and their subsequent sub atomic particles. But as particles and forces break down into smaller components, do they also build up into bigger components? For example; just like a particle is built up of a mixture of sub atomic particles, is our universe is built up of a mixture of forces? Can we look at the universe and its forces in the same way we look at a particle? As in if we changed the mixture of forces can we predict the outcome and say that a different selection of possible universe potentially exists out there?

Yeah, I'm with mfb in not having a clue what you are talking about on "mixture of forces"

As for particles, your terminology shows clearly that you would do well to spend some time studying the standard model. You talk about particles having "sub-atomic particles" but ALL of the particles in the Standard Model ARE subatomic particles and the reason they are part of the standard model is that they DO NOT HAVE sub-particles. If they had sub-particles, then THOSE particles would be what is shown in the standard model.
 
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Not sure what you mean about forces, but standard model was designed to show most fundamental particles know to us at this moment. When proton, neutron, and electron were discovered, they were thought of as the most fundamental particles. But now we know there are quarks and leptons and force carriers. At this time standard model shows the smallest substance you can physically find when you break down a substance.
 
NWH said:
From my basic understanding of the standard model it tries to identify the different kinds of particles, understand their functions and their subsequent sub atomic particles. But as particles and forces break down into smaller components, do they also build up into bigger components? For example; just like a particle is built up of a mixture of sub atomic particles, is our universe is built up of a mixture of forces? Can we look at the universe and its forces in the same way we look at a particle? As in if we changed the mixture of forces can we predict the outcome and say that a different selection of possible universe potentially exists out there?

First, we can understand our universe on large scales fairly well using the Standard Model and general relativity. At the present, gravity is the most important factor in describing large scale structure, while electromagnetism and the strong and weak interaction are important when you investigate the properties of the universe at very early times. To a very large extent, this is due to the fact that the strong and weak interactions are short-range interactions, so when we look at large scales, they can only have a very small effect, which we can usually ignore. Electromagnetism is a long-range interaction, but since stars and galaxies are generally electrically neutral, the electromagnetic interactions between them are also negligible, so we're left with gravity.

Now, your question about changing the mixture of forces is a question that can be studied. We could ask how the universe might be different if the relative strengths of the SM interactions were different. For example, if the electromagnetic interaction was very weak, then atoms and molecules would not be as strongly bound and it might be hard to make complex organic molecules like DNA. The notion that there might be other "universes" where the laws of physics are different from our own is associated with a line of research called the "multiverse." That wikipedia article seems to give a balanced overview of the ideas, along with a discussion of some very reasonable criticism of the more esoteric versions of the multiverse framework.
 

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