YOU: Fix the US Energy Crisis

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The discussion centers on developing a comprehensive plan to address the US energy crisis, emphasizing the need to define specific problems such as pollution from coal, rising demand outpacing supply, foreign oil dependence, and high costs. A proposed solution involves a 30-year, multi-phase approach that includes constructing modern nuclear power plants, heavily funding alternative energy research, and implementing immediate regulations to reduce pollution. The plan outlines a significant investment, potentially $3 trillion over 30 years, but promises long-term benefits like reduced pollution, increased energy capacity, and lower costs. Participants also highlight the importance of political will and public awareness in driving these changes. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the urgency of addressing energy issues through innovative and practical solutions.
  • #691
mheslep said:
Which day of the week?

Lol. Sunday morning at 11am when it's 40F with no clouds and the car is driving due east 50% of the time in Chicago with a 50/50 mix of shaded and unshaded routes.
 
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  • #692
Was reviewing some of the posts upthread on nuclear costs and thought this apropos to recent news:

mheslep said:
Regards the Olkiluoto EPR, any word from the industry on a) the expected final cost of the plant and b) the primary reasons for the cost overruns and schedule delays? Pop press now says 4.5B Euro / $5.7B for the 1,600MW plant, won't come online until 2012 (permit granted in early 2005)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/oct/18/nuclearpower

Update two years on:
But the Olkiluoto-3 reactor has had a deeply troubled history. Originally slated to cost around $4 billion (€3 billion), its price tag has nearly doubled to $7.2 billion (€5.3 billion). And it is four years behind schedule.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703865004575648662738551250.html?KEYWORDS=Olkiluoto

That's one reactor being built at an existing nuclear plant. Good grief.
 
  • #693
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704584804575644773552573304.html") for around town deliveries, and not for green wash, but because they pay off:
[...]Staples Inc., the Frito-Lay division of PepsiCo, FedEx Corp., AT&T Inc. and a few other companies have begun purchasing electric delivery trucks. Proponents say they make more sense in many ways than electric cars. That's because delivery trucks generally drive short, defined routes each day, which are better suited to the limited range of battery power.

Staples has ordered 41 trucks from Smith Electric Vehicles of Kansas City, Mo., and will start receiving them in January. There is "a real strong chance we'll make a second order for 40," Mr. Payette said.

The trucks, which have a top speed of about 50 mph and can carry 16,000 pounds, cost about $30,000 more than a diesel, but Staples expects to recover that expense in 3.3 years because of the savings inherent in the electric models, Mr. Payette said.

Interestingly it appears maintenance is becoming one of the deciding factors for high usage EVs.
Staples said the annual maintenance cost of a diesel delivery truck is about $2,700 in most years, including oil, transmission fluid, filters and belts. For an electric truck—which has no transmission and needs no fluids, filters or belts—the cost is about $250.

I can vouch for the advantage in brake wear from my own experience:
One big savings comes in brakes. Because electric trucks use "regenerative" braking, which returns some of the force of stopping to the batteries in the form of electricity, the brakes don't wear out as fast. That means the brakes last four or five years, not one or two, before they need a $1,100 repair.

Summary:
Add it all up and Staples expects to save nearly $60,000 over the 10-year life of an electric truck over a diesel model.

Stats on the Smith van:
range: 100 miles , 50 miles
top speed: 50 mph
payload: up to 8 tons
recharge time: 6-8 hours
cost for 50 mile version:$90k vs $60k diesel.
 
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  • #694
brainstorm said:
The solution to energy crisis has been discovered and I have already invested: the Snuggie (blanket with sleeves).


As for the problem with heating electric cars, how much propane would it take to keep an electric car at 70F for a 1-hour commute?


That is hilarious I am still laughing a little even now


I have done a lot of thinking on electric cars and I have never thought of heating or cooling the car. Wow

So my two cents in this discussion is this(keeping it short): I think that more giant power plants isn't the answer. A lot of smaller ones would be better. Everything is going to have to become more locally based( well maybe we should keep trying to figure out the whole fusion thing). I just like the idea of having my own personal power supply, same goes for food supplies but that's a different topic I guess, well except for all the energy we would save if we didnt have to drive all our food across thte country and ship it in from other countries. Also home design is HUGE and the materials that go into them. How many houses are designed for passive solar heating? Not many. Passive Solar design in itself would save such a massive amount of energy and that's just the tip of the iceberg. And for cars, well if we worked closer to home we wouldn't have to drive as much. I do think that we should be driving electric cars, the ones with hub motors that burn biodiesel in super efficient free piston linear generator motors that take advantage of regenerative braking and regenerative shocks(I know that was talked about already). Well I don't want to type anymore but those are a couple of things that I could elaborate on if this discussion is continued mainly home and building design there is so much to talk about though.
 
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  • #695
I recently attended a green car expo this past weekend and had the chance to talk to a (very cute) GM rep who was showcasing the chevy volt. She informed me that the latest and greatest batteries from CPI was providing an estimated battery life of about 150k miles, much greater than the current estimated battery life.

Apparently GM is still working with A123 as well and they may become their future supplier. GM has also developed a fuel cell version of the volt, although they don't showcase it nearly as much as the new equinox.
 
  • #696
BilPrestonEsq said:
So my two cents in this discussion is this(keeping it short): I think that more giant power plants isn't the answer. A lot of smaller ones would be better.
Strangely, I have never seen comparative analyses between different configurations of generators and grid maintenance costs (including energy costs). You would expect that some efficiency is gained by the scale of a large central power plant and a widely dispersed grid, but maybe it is the opposite and sprawling urban/rural areas could better scrap their grid lines and recycle them into solar panels. The problem with solar is storage, even when you reduce your power usage to fall within the capacity of your solar system. In denser areas, the costs and materials for maintaining a grid and central generator are probably must less per unit consumption. Surely heating a multistory apartment building uses much less energy than if the same residences were spread out as numerous single-family dwellings?

I just like the idea of having my own personal power supply, same goes for food supplies but that's a different topic I guess, well except for all the energy we would save if we didnt have to drive all our food across thte country and ship it in from other countries.
I would be interested to know how much fuel is consumed by all food-related transportation. I'm not so sure that more fuel is used by ocean ships than trucks driving across land. It may also be the case that the shipping logistics of food-distribution is relatively well-planned and efficient and the biggest energy-waste is due to maintaining climate-controlled and otherwise luxurious supermarkets and prepared food distributors (e.g. restaurants). It could be that if vegetables were grown locally in warm months and more storable dry foods like rice, grains, etc. were distributed out of the backs of trucks, UN-style, that this would cut most of the fuel loss.

And for cars, well if we worked closer to home we wouldn't have to drive as much. I do think that we should be driving electric cars, the ones with hub motors that burn biodiesel in super efficient free piston linear generator motors that take advantage of regenerative braking and regenerative shocks(I know that was talked about already).
Driving less is the holy grail of fuel conservation. More efficient cars are a neat idea, but ultimately how much fuel can you save when you're moving around 2000+ pounds of vehicle weight in addition to passengers and cargo? Trains seem most efficient to me because they have practically no rolling friction and they are long, which would seem to minimize wind-resistance. Rails are expensive to maintain, though.
 
  • #697
brainstorm said:
As for the problem with heating electric cars, how much propane would it take to keep an electric car at 70F for a 1-hour commute?

Why not just regular gas, but used exclusively for heating? Or traditional heating oil?
 
  • #698
Topher925 said:
I recently attended a green car expo this past weekend and had the chance to talk to a (very cute) GM rep who was showcasing the chevy volt. She informed me that the latest and greatest batteries from CPI was providing an estimated battery life of about 150k miles, much greater than the current estimated battery life.

Apparently GM is still working with A123 as well and they may become their future supplier. GM has also developed a fuel cell version of the volt, although they don't showcase it nearly as much as the new equinox.
1. Was that mileage life for the Volt battery (future), or some other, generic, LG CPI battery? 2. Did you get her ph number?
 
  • #699
mheslep said:
1. Was that mileage life for the Volt battery (future), or some other, generic, LG CPI battery? 2. Did you get her ph number?

1. Yes, the vehicle life of the Volt. 2. No, I kept getting cock-blocked from people going up to her and asking stupid questions.
 
  • #700
Issue as I see it is lack of energy independence.

My favored solution is what some call the Matt Simmons plan (see Ocean Energy Institute) which is
1) off shore wind powered electrical generators up and down both the west and east coast
2) on shore wind up and down the middle of the country
3) PV solar in the southwest
4) oil from algea in the southeast

I am also interested in Thorium based nuclear.

Where will the money come from to do this? I do not see a politically doable way to make this happen. If we could divert money from the two major federal expenses health and military to pay for this then we could do it. But that seems unlikely.
 
  • #701
PhilKravitz said:
Issue as I see it is lack of energy independence.

My favored solution is what some call the Matt Simmons plan (see Ocean Energy Institute) which is
1) off shore wind powered electrical generators up and down both the west and east coast
2) on shore wind up and down the middle of the country
3) PV solar in the southwest
4) oil from algea in the southeast
Before paying them, have you given any thought to how those sources work technically, e.g. when the wind doesn't blow, when the sun doesn't shine?
 
  • #702
mheslep said:
Before paying them, have you given any thought to how those sources work technically, e.g. when the wind doesn't blow, when the sun doesn't shine?

I like storage of the energy in the form of hydrogen from water+electric+catalyst. Which is getting easier thanks to the work of the folks at MIT.
 
  • #703
PhilKravitz said:
I like storage of the energy in the form of hydrogen from water+electric+catalyst. Which is getting easier thanks to the work of the folks at MIT.

While I do firmly believe in a hydrogen based economy, there are still a lot of issues to be worked out. The folks at MIT did (somewhat accidentally) find a way to electrolyze water efficiently but that doesn't mean its applicable to full scale industrial applications. AFAIK, things like durability, cost, and purity still need to be addressed with that technique.

As of right now, the only commercially available methods of large scale energy storage is with flywheels and thermal reservoirs used by solar thermal power plants.

Interesting factoid: Humanity doesn't have an energy supply problem. By constructing solar thermal or photovoltaic solar energy farms over just 1% of the land in the Sahara Desert, we could supply all of the worlds energy with essentially no pollution. The problem that we needs to be solved is an energy distribution problem.
 
  • #704
Topher925 said:
As of right now, the only commercially available methods of large scale energy storage is with flywheels and thermal reservoirs used by solar thermal power plants.
And hydro.
 
  • #705
mheslep said:
And hydro.

Woops, forgot about that one.
 
  • #706
Yes hydro is fine but pretty much fully developed in the US. Some options in Canada if you are willing to violate the rights of the original owns and push them out.
 
  • #707
PhilKravitz said:
Yes hydro is fine but pretty much fully developed in the US...
With regards to hydro electric power and storage:
1) All existing hydro, some 8% of total US electric power capacity, can be used to store energy. That is, while solar or wind is online hydro can be (and is) simply idled, allowing water to backup and its potential energy is used later when needed.
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity" , ~3% of US electric power capacity, can be installed nearly anywhere there's a hill large enough hold a lake, i.e. with sufficient elevation. It does not require a large natural water source.

This is not say that pumped storage hydro is a blanket solution to the energy storage problem presented by large scale use of intermittent power sources likes wind and solar, but it certainly can help.
 
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  • #708
mheslep said:
With regards to hydro electric power and storage:
1) All existing hydro, some 8% of total US electric power capacity, can be used to store energy. That is, while solar or wind is online hydro can be (and is) simply idled, allowing water to backup and its potential energy is used later when needed.
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped-storage_hydroelectricity" , ~3% of US electric power capacity, can be installed nearly anywhere there's a hill large enough hold a lake, i.e. with sufficient elevation. It does not require a large natural water source.

This is not say that pumped storage hydro is a blanket solution to the energy storage problem presented by large scale use of intermittent power sources likes wind and solar, but it certainly can help.

#1 is a super good idea that I have never heard before. Is it yours? If so get it out in the public it is good.

#2 yes I like pumped hydro storage. In fact Astor (yes the guy who drowned on the Titanic) wrote a book in 1895 (yes 18!) that proposed pumped hydro storage! The book is "A Journey in Other Worlds" it is mostly about a trip to Saturn and the dinosaurs they find there but along the way he make some comments on energy systems that are 100 years ahead of his time.
 
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  • #709
PhilKravitz said:
#1 is a super good idea that I have never heard before. Is it yours?
Storing power until needed later through hydro has been around as long as there has been hydro.
 
  • #710
So between hydro and hydrogen we have storage taken care of. :)

Now all we have to do is figure out how much money (work and natural resources) it will take to build the system. ;)
 
  • #711
PhilKravitz said:
So between hydro and hydrogen we have storage taken care of. :)
You didn't here that from me; again:
mheslep said:
This is not say that pumped storage hydro is a blanket solution to the energy storage problem presented by large scale use of intermittent power sources likes wind and solar, but it certainly can help.
 
  • #712
OK how much of the storage issue is covered by hydro and hydrogen? Anybody know? How will we find out?
 
  • #713
PhilKravitz said:
OK how much of the storage issue is covered by hydro and hydrogen? Anybody know? How will we find out?

Probably not. We will find out when someone does a study of it.
 
  • #714
Towards Nuclear Fusion: Cobalt properties (specifically of its usage at different temperatures, not the usual).
 
  • #716
Another problem is to create parts and devices without having oil involved. Every part and machine involved must be created with oil substitutes (e.g. no plastics). If you develop a new energetic system but you need oil to build it or transport the parts, then you're not solving the problem.
 
  • #717
russ_watters said:
We always have threads on various pieces of the puzzle, but what I want here is for people to post a coherent plan of how to fix the energy problems we have in the US (and critique what others propose). Some groundrules:

First, though most would agree there are issues, people won't necessarily agree on what they are/what the most important are. So define the problem as you see it before proposing the solution. The usual suspects are: safety, capacity, pollution, cost, future availability of resources, and foreign dependence. Obviously, feel free to modify that list.

Second, I want specific, coherent plans. Don't just say 'reduce CO2 emissions' or 'increase production' - tell me how.

Third, money is important, but not critical (for this thread), so don't let it constrain your ambition. I want solutions that will work - paying for them is another matter. Obviously, any solution will require making tough choices and (in the short term, anyway) spending a lot of money. No need to build a new budget to support it. If you say you want to spend a trillion dollars a year, fine (but the benefit had better be big).

http://www.agmrc.org/markets/info/energyoverview.pdf is a site from another thread with some background info on what we use for what.

I'll go first...

Hello Russ and fellow contributors, I think your question is great!

In 2006 I got the insane idea of purchasing a boat, she's 177' long 42' beam, all steel, end of WWII F/S class ship really. When I got her it was with a general idea of helping to save the oceans with her as a research vessel. Now you ask what in the world does this have to do with fixing anything related to energy right, well here's how.

After getting her and learning all about what makes her run, probably should have done that before getting her; she has seven diesel engines, holds 65,000 US gallons of diesel, burns around 800 us gallons a day when under full cruising speed (around 12.5 knots) and over a 42 week work year generates around 700 tons of emissions, "pollution".

Two problems for a ocean saving vessel, one is it cost a condo every time she gets fueled up and two she pollutes to high heaven, not very Earth friendly.

So, I started looking into ways of running her with lower cost fuel and with hopefully near zero emissions. After five years of research and a bunch of hard work I have a working 125KW prototype electric generation plant that runs on H2O2, and will be running on waste oil. http://www.seabirdadventure.com/tesla-turbine-projects

How does this help, by building a electric power plant that runs on H2O2 and waste oils? H2O2 is a renewable resource and easily made while waste oil is currently being stored and improperly disposed of. http://www.seabirdadventure.com/waste-oil-as-a-fuel-source

The idea is to build three power plants of 850KW each to run the Seabird at full cruising speed while using a waste product and creating zero emissions. That comes out to a little more the 2.4 million watts of electricity, to make a comparison a 3500 sqft house uses about 80KW per day so these power plants would power about 30 homes with AC running and all their lights on.

Now granted that over time as waste oil is eliminated from society this solution would not help much but right now the US gathers and stores around 1.2 billions gallons of waste oil per year with 800 million gallons being disposed of improperly.

Please let me know what you think, thanks

Kris
 
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  • #718
mheslep said:
Storing power until needed later through hydro has been around as long as there has been hydro.
Here is one or two built earlier.http://www.fhc.co.uk/
 
  • #719
More government funding for universities to make researches on things such as energy density/biofuels/plasma energy sources/etc.

The US is mostly a flat territory, making cars use natural gas instead of gasoline something serious, shouldn't be a problem, start selling only fluorescent bulbs, shouldn't be something hard to do as well

The US should leave 3rd world countries alone and don't depend so much on that, yeah, that would not follow the ''superpower'' ideal americans have, but i don't care

organize campaigns, concerts, etc. to promote the green-thinking

eventhough US is the paradise for capitalists, it should lower though, capitalism causes consumism and consumism causes a lot of damage to nature
 
  • #720
I've written an article about this a while ago, funny to find this discussion going on while I was looking for something completely different.

First of all, I'm not a sceptic, nor a scientist, and my main language sure aint english. I'm just trying to be realistic a give my view on this matter, so bare with me.

In my opinion there are some mayor flaws in how the general public looks at alternative energy sources, which may very well be the result of our governments or the large oil companies behind them. A real soltion in my opinion lies in a Technique yet to be dicovered or perfected, while most of us think we can do it with the techniques we allready have. I'll elaborate on this later on.

We are never going to switch to a completely different source of energy in a realistic amount of time, without certains parties benefitting or at least not being disadvantaged by it. When a brilliant scientist finds a solution for all of our energy problems today (for example discovers some sort of perpetuum mobilae), he will be dead tomorrow. Such a solution would destroy our economies, which are driven by oil. Hence the need for a solution that doesn't disadvantage the oil-companies or at least tries to prevent them from going bust.

To cut things short, I believe a solution would be found in a combination of techniques over a period of time. In a first phase we would need to reduce our current trend in polluting our planet and reduce the trend of our energy consumption from materials that are bound to run out in a short period (oil, coal, gas, etc).
The second phase, which needs to run in parallel with all other phases, is looking for alternative power production methods. This should be a heavilly funded non-stop operation.
The third phase would consist of making the switch to these new techniques. From what is known to me today, I'd say a combination of nuclear Fusion together with Hydrogen is our best bet.

Phase 1: At the present we have a few alternative energy production methods at our disposal. The first step in a long term solution would be to use solutions more, and cut back in waste (both energy waste as waste products like CO2). This in a short term won't solve our problems, but would at atleast make them less pressing, giving us time to come up with a consturctive way of resolving these issues.

Phase 2: In this second stage, which should run parrelel to the other stages, we would need find an alternative energy production method which can sustain our growing energy consumption on the long term. The basic idea that seems to be running arround is that we will all use solar/wind/biomass/hydrogen power over 50 years instead of the conventional coal/nuclear power we use today. I believe this isn't true, I'll elaborate later on. The only viable solution for as far as I know of would be something in the means of Nuclear Fusion. Nuclear Fusion has great potential, and should be ready for use in a matter of years. But as stated before, we won't be able to make a switch any time soon. This in my opinion creates a lot of lag in the development of this technique, hence I must put allot of emphasis on this phase. Looking at the current state of politics (encouraging alternative power, but not putting enough emphasis on a real solution), I am convinced we will not make a shift towards an alternative power supply without certain parties benefitting from it.

In the Third stage we would implement all of the above. This is where things get critical. We need to solve our energy issues, without tearing down multiple economies. So, why not use a combination, like we are allready doing today. The oil companies provide us with the juice required to make our engines and factories work, including production of many oil-based products, while the power companies provide us with the electricity to power our homes and bussinesses. For the sake of our economies, let's try to keep it this way. Give the oil companies a free pass to become the only producers of Hydrogen, give the power companies a free pass to become the only producers of Fusion Power. Production of all other oil-based products can continue by the Oil companies (imo oil has a greater value to us as a raw material for plastics etc anyways compared to a raw material for energy production) The mayor benefit of having a renewable and pritty much unlimited power supply, such as Fusion Power, is it gives us the ability to create large quantaties of Hydrogen. All you need to make large quantaties of Hydrogen is electricity, and lots of it.
Oil companies will be satified since making Hydrogen with electricity is much more cost effective then mining for oil, and we'll just let them sell it from approximately the same price as gas for the starting period (to overcome the costs of making the shift). Power companies will need allot of Funding to make such a shift since constructing, perfecting and maintaining Nuclear Power plants is going to cost allot. But I feel if we would distribute this financial burden ammongst all the population benefitting from it we could make it. Or else the governments should put the taxes on gas to a good use.

Finally an elaboration why I think other techniques lack posibility to become our prime way of harvesting power:
- Solar power, lots of potential since it has a lot of yield, but did you ever think about the environmental issues? I mean, your taking energy out of the environment and returning it in a different state. Harmless on a small scale, but what about large scale implementation? Imo, a great addition to our current energy production methods, but no replacement. Also the storage and unreliability (called night or clouds) of this form of energy is a huge problem.
- Biomass Power, from waste: Excellent idea. From crops specificly grown to produce Biomass, TERRIBLE idea. We'd be better of sending those crops to parts of the world straving...
- Hydro Power, geographicly speaking there aren't enough places to build these power plants to sustain our power consumption in the long term, specially for the smaller flat countries (like the Netherlands where I'm from). Not to mention about their potential impact on the environment.. (Dam's build to create artificial lakes are known to have destroyed complete habbitats etc etc.) Again, a nice addition if the environment permits it.
- Wind Energy, if the wind stops blowing, then so does your energy supply. Basicly the same as Solar energy.
- Hydrogen Energy, has huge potential but should be seen (in my opinion) more as a medium to transport energy, rather then an energy source. The most common way to create Hydrogen resides on Electrolysis, which requires electricity. Any other method also requires energy to make Hydrogen. Theres no viable way of making Hydrogen a power supply at this moment, nor will there ever be because of this simple restraint. Even if microbes were to make hydrogen (the most viable solution imo as of today), it would still require huge microbe farms harvesting the power of the sun to make hydrogen.

I'm eager to hear your opinions and critics on this story, since I'm not in any position to share this story to anyone with ample knowledge. Hence I posted it here.
 

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