YOU: Fix the US Energy Crisis

[Ivan Seeking]

Given the vast new finds of natural gas in the US,

CADDO PARISH, La. -- A massive natural-gas discovery here in northern Louisiana heralds a big shift in the nation's energy landscape. After an era of declining production, the U.S. is now swimming in natural gas...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124104549891270585.html

solar cracking of methane may provide a viable path to a carbon-free hydrogen supply.

Background – The SOLHYCARB proposal addresses the exploration of an unconventional route for potentially cost effective hydrogen production with solar energy. The novel process thermally decomposes natural gas (NG) in a high temperature chemical reactor heated by concentrated solar energy. This process results in two products: a H2-rich gas and a high-value nano-material, carbon black (CB). H2 is thus produced with renewable energy. Solar energy is stored as a transportable fuel. The fuel has zero CO2 emission: carbon as opposed to CO2 is sequestered. Fossil fuels are saved, and CB is synthesized.

This solar process is described in Figure 1...

http://www.pre.ethz.ch/research/projects/?id=solhycarb

 

[johnbbahm]

I have been thinking Carbon is a good storage method for Hydrogen. I.E. we make our own methane. We already have a natural gas transport and storage technology.
As for as a long term transport solution, think about making the US interstate system a power grid. Technologies are being worked on now which allow electrical power to cross an air gap. If hybrid vehicles had a secondary tuned circuit to receive power from the powered lane, you could cross the country and the electric use be recorded on your cars electric meter. This might be more useful for long haul trucks. Fuel would still be used, but only for local trips, and to and from the interstate.
Other ideas include homeowners leasing their roofs to power companies for solar power generation. Rent is paid in the form of a percent of power generated.
Fixing our energy issues will require thinking way outside the box.

 

[revaredneck]

hello, my name is rodney, and I am not a very school educated person, but more of an experience educated person, so forgive me if my thoughts seem primitive, or immature to a more scholarly individual. i have had many thoughts on the subject of off grid electricty generation, many of the ones out there are pretty expencive to get started, solar? wind? water? everything costs money i know but the thoughts of men can be free.
that in mind; let's look at a different kind of thought.
energy? electricity? pollution? foreign dependency? we need as a country in our country, an electrical generation machine that does not produce polution, independent from need of outside country help, and does not need a specific fuel persay to run.

perpetual motion electricity generation; maybe using pendulums and counter weights, to produce a perpetual motion electricity generating machine. i believe it is not only possible but in reality can be done using a switch to switch counter weight ballances to keep the motion going. when one weight gets to its optimum a switch turns it or switches it to use the other side of a set of weights to keep it in a see saw affect, using gears simular to a grand father clock, only in a large enough scale to turn off set pulleys to turn power generators. using gears and counter weights this concept could and can be a reality. i realize the thoughts on the friction debate, but i believe that if enough people put enough thought into the actual building of this, IT CAN BE feasable.

and to the problem of the case for friction i say one word,... GREASE!

i wish to hear any comments good or bad to my thinking, and again please forgive me for my ignorance. R.E.VanAlstine.

 

[Erk3452]

Um no... That will never happen.

 

[mheslep]

...

perpetual motion electricity generation; maybe using pendulums and counter weights, to produce a perpetual motion electricity generating machine. i believe it is not only possible but in reality can be done using a switch to switch counter weight ballances to keep the motion going. ...

Hello Rodney. That topic is not allowed here.

...Perpetual motion and "free energy" discussions
Search PF and you will find many threads that have been closed in a number of forums. As for S&D, any claim of this nature would be reproducible and/or testable by the scientific community; hence there is no need for debate.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2269439&postcount=2

 

[revaredneck]

may i ask why?

 

[russ_watters]

Because it violates the laws of physics and discussing it attracts crackpots.

 

[timthereaper]

General rule: if you think you've disproved the second law of thermodynamics and can get free energy, it's best to just keep that a secret.

As for the energy topic, has anyone done any significant fact-finding into this new thorium-based nuclear reactor business? I've heard it touted as the new "holy grail" for nuclear energy. Also, I've heard that Paul Pantone's GEET system is supposed to revolutionize fueled vehicles. A friend of mine really believes in it, but then again, he's a website designer with no engineering experience. I would like to know if anyone can show that these systems aren't all that they're cracked up to be.

 

[johnbbahm]

I like the idea of PV collectors, and looked into it several years ago. At that time many energy saving items were a better value than PV. Windows, Radiant barrier, better insulation, ect... . I see part of the issue with PV is the payback curve. You are trying to get your house's power usage down to where the area of the roof can collect the average usage. By the time the usage and surface curves cross, the payback is past the life expectancy of the panels.
Another issue I found with PV was purely accounting. In the late 90's none of the factories making panels, were running the factories with their own panels.
If they could not save money by using panels that only cost them their "cost of goods sold--less marketing" How could a homeowner save money paying the full price.
Prices have been coming down, and panels would shade the roof, Grid tied solved the peak vs average issue. Maybe time to revisit.

 

[OmCheeto]

I like the idea of PV collectors

As do I, and my father before me.

, and looked into it several years ago. At that time many energy saving items were a better value than PV. Windows, Radiant barrier, better insulation, ect... .

This is why I invested in OC.

I see part of the issue with PV is the payback curve. You are trying to get your house's power usage down to where the area of the roof can collect the average usage. By the time the usage and surface curves cross, the payback is past the life expectancy of the panels.
Another issue I found with PV was purely accounting.

As it should have been, and should be.

In the late 90's none of the factories making panels, were running the factories with their own panels.

Location, location, location. Solarworld built the largest solar manufacturing http://www.solarworld-usa.com/news-and-resources/news/solarworld-opens-north-americas-largest-solar-cell-manufacturing-facility.aspx" in North America in Oregon. Why? Oregon has abundant fresh water. (That's the reason I heard anyways)

It would be great to make the panels in New Mexico, or southern California, where the sun always shines, but where would you get the water from?

If they could not save money by using panels that only cost them their "cost of goods sold--less marketing" How could a homeowner save money paying the full price.
Prices have been coming down, and panels would shade the roof, Grid tied solved the peak vs average issue. Maybe time to revisit.

Check out https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=324207".

I would explain to him an engineering modification to his existing array to improve his overall system efficiency by 300%, but that would steal all of his fun.

99% of the fun of science is figuring things out for yourself.

---------------------------------
Spock: He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking.
The Borg Queen: You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become.
Me, interpreting how http://www.fritjofcapra.net/" thinks: Imagine the universe, interconnected, in a poly-dimensional web, where everything affects everything.

 

[edpell]

has anyone done any significant fact-finding into this new thorium-based nuclear reactor business?

I have been looking into this for a few months. I have posted a link to a good site on the subject. I can not post the link a second time here because it violates PF rules.

The energy from thorium forum has a lively discussion of thorium reactors. Oak Ridge operated a small thorium reactor for several years in the 60s. The Chinese are currently building a proof of concept thorium reactor. In the US a new company Flibe Energy has been formed to provide thorium reactors to US military bases that want "base islanding" (there own power supply). Two researcher one from Brookhaven National Labs and one from Israel have gotten money from the US Israeli National Science Foundation to study thorium reactors.

So the net is it is an active field. We will see what comes of it in five years.

 

[DrClapeyron]

I was discussing with a co-worker her desire to trade in her mid-size crossover SUV for a full-size SUV. I think she and other people go with the SUV and large vehicles generally because the seats are at hip level and it makes getting things (i.e. kids, etc) in and out easier. Try designing a car, maybe with Goldwing doors or something that allows more access inside the car. That and people are fat here, and here in America that makes SUVs the defacto means of transportation since it is the only way for most people to avoid the humiliation of having to tell your boss you were late to work because you got stuck in your seat while trying to exit your car.

Ok, that was senile.

Red tape. Government puts too much red tape around nuclear power. Sensationalism from Chernobyl, 3 Mile and now Japan means it will not happen in this country. People have too much fear of nuclear power to prevent sending 19 year old kids to their death in Iraq. Ok, a little senile as well.

Maybe congress should take the restrictions off more effecient reactor designs like breeder reactors. I think all the red tape is there to prevent a collapse of the coal industry and, what would be far worse for their pocketbooks, a contraction in the oil industry. Outside of a great new breakthrough in fusion technology all the "alternatives" we have are not alternatives.

They are the status quo. Nuclear energy and PV cells are nothing new so why would anyone consider them "alternatives"?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

U.S. Researcher Preparing Prototype Cars Powered by Heavy-Metal Thorium
http://wardsauto.com/ar/thorium_power_car_110811/
http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/8-grams-of-thorium-could-replace-gasoline-in-cars-20110812/

 

[mheslep]

U.S. Researcher Preparing Prototype Cars Powered by Heavy-Metal Thorium
http://wardsauto.com/ar/thorium_power_car_110811/
http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-cetera/8-grams-of-thorium-could-replace-gasoline-in-cars-20110812/

A 250 MW unit weighing about 500 lbs. (227 kg) would be small and light enough to drop under the hood of a car, he says.

i.e. 336 thousand HP? Under the hood of the Space Shuttle more like it. Sounds like a crackpot link.

 

[RonL]

This is an interesting improvement for transfer of power, the oscillating ring reduces friction to a minimum, close to an electric motor.

http://www.engineair.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=9

30 seconds into the video, channel 10, an actual unit shows the bearings that push the ring into the motion that engages the sliding vanes.

http://www.engineair.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=2&Itemid=11

Ron

 

[OmCheeto]

i.e. 336 thousand HP? Under the hood of the Space Shuttle more like it. Sounds like a crackpot link.

Oh stop exaggerating.

Small blocks of thorium generate heat surges that are configured as a thorium-based laser, Stevens tells Ward’s. These create steam from water within mini-turbines, generating electricity to drive a car.

It's probably only 25% efficient, so it won't generate any more than 84,000 hp.

Though I was just thinking about such a thing today; "My investment is almost risk free. Unless of course, someone actually does invent a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Fusion#Mr._Fusion" device"

 

[Topher925]

Despite Secretary Chu and President Obama looking to drastically cut and slow down the development of fuel cell and hydrogen technology, fuel cell vehicles seem to be growing and progressing faster than ever. Mercedes-Benz recently bumped up their FCV release date to 2014 from 2015 stating,

We have proven that by sending three vehicles with a fuel cell around the globe without any relevant problems. The issue is infrastructure. We made this trip to prove technology is ready and we need partners to take care of infrastructure.

http://www.insideline.com/mercedes-benz/mercedes-benz-fuel-cell-car-ready-for-market-in-2014.html

Toyota is still planning on mass producing their FC Highlander in 2015 and GM and Honda have stated that they will follow and be releasing vehicles in the same time frame.

It appears that the fuzzy future of alt fuels for transportation applications is becoming more clear. The only problem now is developing the infrastructure. While the US is doing diddly-squat to create a hydrogen fuel infrastructure Europe and Japan are well on their way to support hydrogen technologies.

The European Union and the world’s largest automakers have stated that they will be ready with hydrogen cars and H2 fueling stations by the year 2015. Meanwhile the Federal Government of the United States has stated they have no intention on being ready and are most willing to be followers instead of leaders in these emerging technologies.

http://www.icinola.com/hydrogen-cars/denmark-and-germany-open-new-hydrogen-fueling-stations/

I think the answer to the question "What will replace the ICE powered car?" is quickly becoming Fuel Cell Hybrid Electric Vehicles (FCHEV's) with a mix of a BEV's owning a small portion of the market. Now if we could just get our act together maybe we can make this transition quick and painless.

 

[mheslep]

On Mercedes FCV round the http://www.insideline.com/mercedes-benz/b-class/mercedes-benz-b-class-f-cell-set-for-trip-around-the-world.html":

"On remote routes a tank vehicle will be on hand to supply the fuel cell vehicles with the necessary hydrogen," said [Mercedes Benz]

That doesn't sound like a build out of the H2 infrastructure is well on its way.

 

[Topher925]

That doesn't sound like a build out of the H2 infrastructure is well on its way.

That's a rather naive statement. Its obvious that there are remote locations in the world that won't have H2 fueling stations just as there are routes that don't have gas or diesel stations.

 

[mheslep]

...just as there are routes that don't have gas or diesel stations.

In the US? What routes would these be?

 

[Brian H]

Wires are cheaper than hydrogen pipelines.

 

[moejoe15]

Seems to me there is a good solution if you believe in our ingenuity. I personally believe we can solve almost any engineering problem if we put enough will, brains and money into it. We had a smart president once who believed that and we went to the moon. There were probably many nabobs of negativism then who were against it or didn't believe it was possible. I am sure many of those same types will pan this idea too. I will say right now they are wrong.

Every single person on this planet is standing on top of an unlimited clean source of power. Geothermal energy if exploited would solve almost all our energy needs essentially forever. All we need is another Kennedy to focus the national will and resources and all the obstacles could be solved. I KNOW that is true.

 

[mheslep]

...

Every single person on this planet is standing on top of an unlimited clean source of power. Geothermal energy if exploited would solve almost all our energy needs essentially forever.

Do you know how you know this is true, and can explain how, or is that statement a matter of faith?

All we need is another Kennedy to focus the national will and resources and all the obstacles could be solved. I KNOW that is true.

The Moon landing was a spectacular achievement, yet it still amounted to sending only three men there a few times over. Constructing a mechanism that can provide something like energy cheaply to billions of people is an entirely different venture.

 

[SystemsEngr]

For start, force people to switch from incadescent lightbulbs to fluorescent ones. In USA fluorescent bulbs are still BIG news.Small steps like this can make big difference.

Actually, LED bulbs are starting to be available that are lower power input, longer-lasting and not subject to breakage and mercury leakage. These need to be better - right now LEDs available are too expensive, too heavy for some applications, and not bright enough (I looked recently for a 100W replacement, and didn't find one).

 

[moejoe15]

Do you know how you know this is true, and can explain how, or is that statement a matter of faith?...

I was under the impression that there is molten core at the center of the earth? Not true? You don't have to dig far in some places to tap heat and heat is energy. Geothermal is already used in places where the heat is close to the surface and easily tapped. It's there everywhere if you dig deep enough and think it is just an engineering problem and if there is anything we do well it is overcome engineering problems. There are places in the US where it isn't far under the surface. Yellowstone for one. We routinely drill over a mile down now, I think we can get much farther down if we tried. The point is the energy is there, all we have to do is figure out how to get it instead of throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible as people like you want to do.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I was under the impression that there is molten core at the center of the earth? Not true? You don't have to dig far in some places to tap heat and heat is energy. Geothermal is already used in places where the heat is close to the surface and easily tapped. It's there everywhere if you dig deep enough and think it is just an engineering problem and if there is anything we do well it is overcome engineering problems. There are places in the US where it isn't far under the surface. Yellowstone for one. We routinely drill over a mile down now, I think we can get much farther down if we tried. The point is the energy is there, all we have to do is figure out how to get it instead of throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible as people like you want to do.

Nobody was suggesting it was impossible but there are huge technical challenges with widespread geothermal power. Suggesting it as an option without providing good explanation as to why and how is as sensible and productive as saying "if we had lots of solar power we could cheaply power the Earth". It's superficially true but working out the science and engineering of how to make it work is a different story entirely.

 

[mheslep]

... The point is the energy is there, all we have to do is figure out how to get it instead of throwing up our hands and saying it's impossible as people like you want to do.

Yes and the energy of the Sun is there, all we have to do is figure out how to send spaceships to the sun and get it. Look, this is an engineering forum. It seems to me you have two options: actually engage in investigating the possibilities of energy sources such as geothermal, if that is your interest, or preach dogma (to an appropriate audience somewhere else).

 

[moejoe15]

I see, so I should either go out and drill or shut up. Thanks for clearing up the purpose of this thread.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I see, so I should either go out and drill or shut up. Thanks for clearing up the purpose of this thread.

It's not just the purpose of this thread it is the purpose of this entire forum to provide thorough and well reasoned explanations in as much detail as possible using sources from peer-reviewed literature. Initial ideas are fine but when questioned you should be prepared to back up a claim with detailed data and if you read the first post in this thread you will see that the specific purpose here is not to throw around initial ideas but to present fully thought out proposals.

So please don't think there is anything wrong with posting initial ideas such as "I think we should use more geothermal energy" but when somebody asks you to elaborate you should provide proper and thorough explanations and proposals rather than becoming defensive and dismissive.

 

[Redbelly98]

I see, so I should either go out and drill or shut up. Thanks for clearing up the purpose of this thread.

You could provide an estimate of how much power geothermal energy can provide. How many kW per square meter? How many square meters are required to power the United States (or the world, or other country of your choice)? Without doing that, you don't really know if geothermal is viable or not.

If we had those estimates, we could have a discussion about the merits of geothermal power.

[EDIT added:]
And if you can't provide the estimates yourself, you may simply ask "What about geothermal power? How many kW per square meter could it provide? etc. etc."