Axiom of Choice and something I find to not be logical

In summary, the Banach-Tarski paradox states that, using the axiom of choice and abstract set theory, it is possible to divide a sphere and rearrange its parts in a way that results in two spheres of the same size as the original. The proof for this is complex, involving concepts such as surgery theory, and it relies on sets that are not measurable, making it difficult to determine the original volume. However, the construction only requires five pieces, and it is possible to rearrange all the points in a sphere to form two spheres of the same size if done one point at a time. Despite the non-measurable subsets involved, their total measure adds up to the original volume due to the linearity of measure.
  • #1
Ed Quanta
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I heard something along the lines of when you accept the axiom of choice as true, you can then prove using some abstract set theory that by dividing a sphere, you can divide it and then put it together so that it is bigger than it originally was?

Is the math behind this proof difficult? And is this true?
 
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  • #2
from Kuro5hin - Layman's Guide to the Banach-Tarski Paradox --->
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/5/23/134430/275

search "Banach-Tarski" for more stuff.

Feynman said phooey about B-T --->
http://www.ams.org/new-in-math/mathdigest/200112-choice.html
 
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  • #3
IIRC, the proof uses surgery theory.

One of the main things to emphasize about the construction is that its intermediate steps involve sets that are not measurable. All of the clever work is done with sets for which you cannot define volume, so there isn't any reason to expect that you have the original volume when you're done.


And, incidentally, the big point about the construction is that it only uses five pieces. It's a trivial exercise to prove that you can rearrange all of the points in one sphere to form two spheres of the same size, if you do it one point at a time.
 
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  • #4
Hurkyl said:
IIRC, the proof uses surgery theory.

One of the main things to emphasize about the construction is that its intermediate steps involve sets that are not measurable. All of the clever work is done with sets for which you cannot define volume, so there isn't any reason to expect that you have the original volume when you're done.


And, incidentally, the big point about the construction is that it only uses three pieces. It's a trivial exercise to prove that you can rearrange all of the points in one sphere to form two spheres of the same size, if you do it one point at a time.


The "not measureable" subsets are disjoint and add up to the whole original ball. Therefore by linearity of measure their total measure is the original volume, even though that can't be allocated to them in any way.
 

Related to Axiom of Choice and something I find to not be logical

1. What is the Axiom of Choice and why is it important in mathematics?

The Axiom of Choice is a fundamental mathematical principle that states, given any collection of non-empty sets, it is possible to choose a single element from each set. It is important because it allows for the creation of infinite collections and the development of other mathematical concepts such as cardinality and topology.

2. Can the Axiom of Choice be proven or is it just assumed to be true?

The Axiom of Choice cannot be proven within the standard framework of set theory, known as Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory. It is considered to be an assumption, or an axiom, that is consistent with other axioms and is necessary for the development of certain areas of mathematics.

3. Are there any criticisms or controversies surrounding the Axiom of Choice?

Yes, there have been various criticisms and controversies surrounding the Axiom of Choice since its introduction in the late 19th century. Some mathematicians have argued that it leads to counterintuitive results, such as the Banach-Tarski paradox, where a solid ball can be divided into a finite number of pieces and reassembled to form two identical copies of the original ball.

4. Is the Axiom of Choice necessary for all areas of mathematics?

No, the Axiom of Choice is not necessary for all areas of mathematics. In fact, there are some areas of mathematics, such as constructive mathematics, which reject the Axiom of Choice and instead rely on more limited principles of choice. However, the Axiom of Choice is still widely accepted and used in many areas of mathematics.

5. Can the Axiom of Choice be replaced by another principle or axiom?

There are alternative axioms that have been proposed as replacements for the Axiom of Choice, such as the Axiom of Determinacy and the Axiom of Boundedness. However, these axioms have their own limitations and are not widely accepted as replacements for the Axiom of Choice.

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