Medical Is Coping with Asperger's Worth the Effort?

[Li(n)]

People with this neurological condition have trouble in relationships because they were born that way...

 

[bm0p700f]

What is your point. Many "normal" folk have trouble in relationships too.

 

[Evo]

What is your point. Many "normal" folk have trouble in relationships too.

People with true aspergers have problems understanding emotions, some can't make eye contact, they can't read facial expressions, they tend to take things literally, will be afraid of meeting in person, etc... I have attempted dating two men with asperger's.

 

[azdavesoul]

My understanding is that someone who does not have this mental structure cannot comprehend what it is like to function with this completely different world view. I feel that it is not a disease or ‘syndrome’ as much as having different tools to analyze and interact with reality. There are advantages that more than make up for the difficulty in communication.
One aspect is to build compensating behavioral interaction patterns to match accepted norms. This is done naturally thru adolescent development, and leads to a feeling of ‘faking’ emotion but also enables the person to understand how people work rather than just reacting to stimuli.

Here are some useful sites for this subset of humanity…
http://newideas.net/aspergers-syndrome
http://www.aspergers.com/
http://www.aspergersyndrome.org/
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aspergers-syndrome/DS00551

 

[cmb]

People with this neurological condition have trouble in relationships because they were born that way...

This seems to be a typical neuro-typical's (NT) view of such things.

From my experience, it is a judgemental view, because it seems to me that relationship problems are associated with the neurotypical types, not the Asperger's types:

NT+NT -> relationship issues are common. (Both sides may have their own ideas on relationships = unbalanced = problems to overcome)
NT+Asperger -> relationship issues are usual. (One side will likely have their own ideas on how the relationship should go = unbalanced = problems to overcome)
Asperger+Asperger -> relationship issues are uncommon. (Neither has a clue = balanced = no expectations therefore no problems to overcome)

 

[Evo]

This seems to be a typical neuro-typical's (NT) view of such things.

From my experience, it is a judgemental view, because it seems to me that relationship problems are associated with the neurotypical types, not the Asperger's types:

NT+NT -> relationship issues are common. (Both sides may have their own ideas on relationships = unbalanced = problems to overcome)
NT+Asperger -> relationship issues are usual. (One side will likely have their own ideas on how the relationship should go = unbalanced = problems to overcome)
Asperger+Asperger -> relationship issues are uncommon. (Neither has a clue = balanced = no expectations therefore no problems to overcome)

Where are you getting this information?

Asperger's syndrome symptoms include:

Engaging in one-sided, long-winded conversations, without noticing if the listener is listening or trying to change the subject

Displaying unusual nonverbal communication, such as lack of eye contact, few facial expressions, or awkward body postures and gestures

Showing an intense obsession with one or two specific, narrow subjects, such as baseball statistics, train schedules, weather or snakes

Appearing not to understand, empathize with or be sensitive to others' feelings Having a hard time "reading" other people or understanding humor

Speaking in a voice that is monotonous, rigid or unusually fast Moving clumsily, with poor coordination

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/aspergers-syndrome/DS00551/DSECTION=symptoms

Abstract
To study the personality characteristics of adults with Asperger syndrome, and investigate the value of self-rating personality inventories, we administered the Temperament and Character Inventory (TCI) to 31 outpatients with Asperger syndrome. The TCI is a self-rating personality inventory that has been validated in the Swedish general population. The results were compared with age- and sex-matched norm groups. Participants with Asperger syndrome scored significantly higher on harm avoidance and lower on self-directedness and cooperativeness. Reward dependence and novelty seeking tended to be low. They also had significantly higher rarity scores, reflecting idiosyncratic perspectives. The most common temperament configurations were 'obsessional', 'passive-dependent' and'explosive'. Character, reflecting conceptual maturity, was poorly developed in the majority of our subjects. The self-ratings of persons with Asperger syndrome thus indicated anxious personalities with coping difficulties in the areas of social interaction and self-directedness, a picture corresponding to the clinical descriptions of Asperger syndrome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12212919

 

[cmb]

Where are you getting this information?

You are asking where I am getting this information when I have said it is from my experience!?

Through my eyes, ears and other senses... it's where most people get the information of their experiences from (well, not my eyes and ears, that is to say).

 

[Evo]

You are asking where I am getting this information when I have said it is from my experience!?

Through my eyes, ears and other senses... it's where most people get the information of their experiences from (well, not my eyes and ears, that is to say).

Sorry, I didn't realize your entire post was anecdotal. Have you've been diagnosed with aspergers? I am very close to 2 men with asperger's and I keep forgetting that they can't get humor or metaphors or jokes most of the time. As I said they can't make eye contact, they're afraid of meeting people or being in situations they are not familar with. They don't get emotions, as one guy told me, Ok, this is another "deer in the headlights" moment, meaning he's not able to understand the emotional event I am describing.

 

[cmb]

Medical people have regarded me as 'having Asperger's', in a clinical setting. Actually, I think it's more a case of outright autism, albeit an extremely highly functional version of it, to the point of apparently overcoming any 'disability'. I can't quite tell for myself anymore, as I have gotten so good at pretending to be NT when I need to be, and to avoid making NT's feel too uncomfortable.

By the time I was around 10 I was bright enough to recognise other people 'did stuff very differently' and clearly approached their lives in a wholly different way to myself [actually, this realisation at least in part stemmed from people commenting that I was a truly horrible child, which seemed odd as I felt I was doing exactly what was logical for any given scenario]. So, like the poster above has said already, I set about choosing people whose behaviour I felt was worth copying, to accomplish the task of progressing in life, and then copying their behaviour.

But enough about me (!), what about you. If you think my description of relationships is in error, let me ask you this (if I may); these guys you were seeing - who had the problem 'with' the relationship. Was it they that thought the relationship wasn't working out, or you? Who was it who actually 'had' (/has) the relationship problem?

 

[Evo]

But enough about me (!), what about you. If you think my description of relationships is in error, let me ask you this (if I may); these guys you were seeing - who had the problem 'with' the relationship. Was it they that thought the relationship wasn't working out, or you? Who was it who actually 'had' the relationship problem?

There was no problem with the relationships. Their aspergers made it impossible to date. One guy would select a location, then he'd have to map the place out and have his getaway planned if he got too overwhelmed, then end up canceling anyway because he was too afraid he'd flop. He's in his 40's and still can't date.

There are different levels of severity.

 

[cmb]

Their aspergers made it impossible to date.

This is the point of my comment above. Sure, I understand that it wasn't the relationship* you wanted, but was it a problem for you that he was like that, or that he felt his behaviour was a problem for the relationship?

*(I'm talking generally - acquaintances, friends, colleagues, spouses, &c...)

This is how, *in my experience*, NT's typically see this. They say; "This Asperger person has a problem with relationships because they do [or don't do] things the way I'd like them to do it."

D'you see what I am getting at? How is it that they get the 'blame' for not being good in relationships when it's actually because the other isn't prepared to accept them for who they are and how they act? It is illogical to critique another person for your reaction to a given scenario.

If there were two such people, they'd not get upset much about the behaviour of the other 'Asperger type', in the scenario you describe. They'd just let the other get on with whatever, whilst they do likewise. If they happen to do something at roughly the same time, in roughly the same place, they might decide to call that a relationship and aim to repeat the experience. If a planned event didn't work out, for whatever reason, they'd just either a) try it again sometime later [relationship continues], or b) not try it again [relationship ends]. Why get all upset about it? NT's like to analyse 'feelings about stuff' to the nth degree, yet feelings are subjective so are beyond rational analysis, so why bother?

I'm not trying to suggest that relationships should proceed without any regard for how the other person may react. Of course, these are things I have observed and internalised - NT's typically feel 'hurt' if they are not given some level of attention they think is appropriate that makes them feel special and cared for. But my point is that this, and other NT traits, are usually why relationships fail. If such traits and behaviours are absent in a relationship on both sides, such as in an Asperger-on-Asperger relationship, then it'd not be a possible cause of the relationship failing.

 

[Evo]

This is the point of my comment above. Sure, I understand that it wasn't the relationship* you wanted, but was it a problem for you that he was like that, or that he felt his behaviour was a problem for the relationship?

No, I had no problem, I was willing to do whatever was needed to make them comfortable. They were the ones that decided they were incapable of ever having a relationship with anyone. No matter how encouraging I was, they were too afraid. They are both still alone.

 

[cmb]

Sounds like you did what you could to make it work, under the circumstances. I'm not saying every 'Aspie' is perfect once you get deep enough under 'the shell', they have problems too - just that the problems will tend to be 'different' and less likely to originate from personal feelings, which is usually what causes relationships to fail. Looks like it didn't even get started for it to fail, for you. Sorry to hear it - I do recognise it can be an emotionally 'expensive' effort for NT's to deal with 'Aspies'.

 

[Astronuc]

Asperger's folks have a spectrum of behaviors/symptoms, from mild to extreme, and in fact each person, like normal folk, is unique. Asperger's syndrome is one of the conditions found on the autism spectrum.

This might help - http://www.aspergerssyndrome.org/

It works for me.

 

[TheShrike]

D'you see what I am getting at? How is it that they get the 'blame' for not being good in relationships when it's actually because the other isn't prepared to accept them for who they are and how they act? It is illogical to critique another person for your reaction to a given scenario.

I'm afraid I don't follow at all. Let's give a counterexample: suppose that I'm in a relationship and this person cheats on me. I'm hurt about this, but I can't blame that hurt on the other person's actions?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I don't know that much about Asperger's, but my son is on the Autistic Spectrum. From my experience with him and his classmates I find that there is as much variation in the ASD spectrum as there is in the general population. It's easy to get a distorted picture of what these kids are like by what you read in the media and especially from the internet. No description is going to cover a wide selection of the ASD population.

 

[Evo]

I don't know that much about Asperger's, but my son is on the Autistic Spectrum. From my experience with him and his classmates I find that there is as much variation in the ASD spectrum as there is in the general population. It's easy to get a distorted picture of what these kids are like by what you read in the media and especially from the internet. No description is going to cover a wide selection of the ASD population.

The main thing these two people had in common was that they were brilliant, and they were more open and honest than most people.

I know people that have very mild cases of aspergers, it is a very wide range, like all neurological problems.

 

[Tea Jay]

I have a son with Aspergers and have done a lot of research as well. As mentioned, its a form of autism, but at the far end of the spectrum from the kids on TV who sit and spin a plate all day and don't notice people around them.

My son for example can't filter stimuli OUT well. He has no choice but to process the TV, the radio, and a nearby conversation at the same time he's reading a magazine article...but if someone turns on the vacuum cleaner for example, that might overwhelm his limits, and he might explode, but if perhaps he had only the magazine, TV and vacuum cleaner he'd be ok.

He experiences life in a magnified way. Everything is larger to him. If you might feel a little anxious about having an interview, he's feeling abject terror at the thought. If you feel a little nervous about meeting a girl for a date, he might run and hide. If you got that job you applied for, you might do a fist pump or smile, etc...he might dance around the house singing Halleluiah.

He might also say he can't look for a job because he has a doctor's appointment next month, and if he asked for the time off to go to it, they'd probably fire him, so why look for a job until after the appointment (The idea of the potential conflict is overwhelming).

He might not be able to find the typical word for something...if he falls and skins his palms on the pavement, he might say his hands feel spicy. If he picks up a feather, he might exclaim that he's found a birdie leaf. When he's dancing around singing Halleluiah, he's actually saying Honolulu! Honolulu!

Its not easy being him, but, he's bright, he did get through college with a BS in Business, knows sport statistics and who's in what league/position down to the college level, has learned to "get along" with people, actually has a fair number of close friends who have grown to appreciate him and his intelligence, brutal honesty, and that he doesn't chase them down the street with a baseball bat, anymore.

He's 29, has girl friends, but has never had a girlfriend. If he continues to grow and mature, etc, I think its possible one day, but she would need to be a saint.

 

[Andre]

I have a nephew and a friend "diagnosed" with asperger

He experiences life in a magnified way. Everything is larger to him.

I understand that autism and asperger are considered the same scale with different intensities. I wonder however if, say-the sensory intensity of Asperger- is related to the social deficiencies of Autism. Could it be two dimensions, unrelated? Can somebody with intense sensory issues have a very high social EQ, totally non-autistic? In that case, could it be that behavior, due to the intense feelings, can be misinterpreted as social deficient?

 

[Tea Jay]

I have a nephew and a friend "diagnosed" with asperger
I understand that autism and asperger are considered the same scale with different intensities. I wonder however if, say-the sensory intensity of Asperger- is related to the social deficiencies of Autism. Could it be two dimensions, unrelated? Can somebody with intense sensory issues have a very high social EQ, totally non-autistic? In that case, could it be that behavior, due to the intense feelings, can be misinterpreted as social deficient?

Its not so much the intensity, as the end of the scale parameters they are on.

If you think of their consciousness as analogous to a telescope, those on one end of the spectrum are seeing life through the view finder...a tightly focused attention on a very narrow target, with nothing else in the field of view...

..and those on the other end of the spectrum are viewing life through the opposite end, blown up larger, with a wide field of view, but with blurs and distortions due to the "fish eye" effect, etc.

Its part of the same disorder, but there are two ends. For some, their telescope has a larger or smaller field of view...more like a spotting scope or opera glasses perhaps, and the distortions are less severe, from either end.

As people with Aspergers tend to be highly intelligent, and classically focused on a particular interest...they can become experts in a field, or incredible at pinball, or other specialized pursuit for example

Because of that focus though, the rest of the world doesn't register well. If you see through a telescope, and you are into dinosaurs as your focus...you are looking for dinosaur related opportunities so to speak, and ignoring the other topics.

A normal person will notice others yawning, or chewing their arms off to escape a dinosaur related discussion...and take appropriate actions, perhaps changing the subject for example. The Asperger sufferer will tend to be so into the dinosaur discussion, and so happy to be talking about dinosaurs to people, that he will fail to notice/register that those people are trying to escape, looking at their watches, yawning, feigning death, etc. HE'S having a great time.

The Asperger sufferer tends not to see himself reflected by others, self awareness can be very limited. Comments along the lines of "doesn't he see what he looks like?" would be more common, as they might be too focused on their particular interest, or anxiety, etc, to look at themselves, or on others' reaction to them. They tend to interact more with people as opposed to those with the narrow spectrum autism conditions, but to misinterpret the interactions.

The sufferers at the other end of the spectrum may not even acknowledge the existence of others, or of dinosaurs, but may be so tightly focused that all they are aware of is a spinning plate or a button, etc...and this is a much harder transition point socially, as other people are potentially not on their radar.

The autism is therefore present in different degrees and spectrum ends, and how that leaves the person with resources to compensate therefore varies greatly. Some can develop genuine and deep empathy for others, and eventually notice and redirect conversations or behavioral patterns accordingly, and others have less success, but, its always a question of degree.

What comes naturally to a normal person might take decades for a person with mild Aspergers, and never happen for a severe case.

So as to if the intense feelings can be misinterpreted by others as a social deficiency, well, its the expression mode of the intense feelings that lead to the interpretations.

IE: We might all get excited at a party if physics or one of our topics of interest is broached, but, most of us will tone down our responses based upon our perception of the others present, and allow the conversation to go where the group is interested naturally...and we might even have other interests we would be happy to converse about as well, etc...just like everyone else...

...but the Aspy might have trouble letting it go, or letting someone else talk, and might over react to the opportunity. You or I may feel a bit wistful if the topics we're most interested in seem to have been a merely passing mention, but the Aspy might get really angry or upset, and react as if he'd been attacked or affronted, perhaps insisting that the topic he's interested in be the one we all must discuss now. This will be interpreted as a social deficiency, as the actions will seem out of scale to the supposed infraction/issue.

As the medical problem itself impairs how one views and interprets others, its very nature reduces the ability to interact as easily.

 

[cmb]

I understand that autism and asperger are considered the same scale with different intensities. I wonder however if, say-the sensory intensity of Asperger- is related to the social deficiencies of Autism.

I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations? None of the 'typical characteristics' given above about Asperger or Autism so far seem like any sort of 'disability', other than the fact that NT's are choosing to see them as disabilities. I consider it very judgemental. So what that a person doesn't look at you when you are talking with them? So what they get excited about something you find dull, but are blank about something you think they should be getting excited about? What's the issue? Why LABEL it as a deficiency?

I find typical NT's are typically deficient in many traits that I do not see for people I would regard to be comfortably within the Asperger spectrum.

My personal observations/interpretations:
NT's get overly emotional about matters they regard as personal sleights or signs of disrespect, their behaviour is capricious and inconsistent, they over-look the obvious, they decline to argue a point until each detail and element is properly resolved and seek to close down a discussion quick and disallow all the germane information to be raised (probably because it is an attention-span overload for them - and/or where they have an 'emotional attachment' to the point they are arguing), they use 'intuition' instead of logic or at least allow logic to be overruled by their 'feelings'. Worst of all they tell Aspergers types who see the world as a daunting, confusing place that it is because they, the Aspies, are the incapable ones and they have to learn to 'overcome their disability'; whereas in fact the world IS a confusing place and they are just seeing it for how it really is, all at once where an NT has mental blocks put in place that they do not see the bigger picture all in one go. (I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other. 'Coping strategies' may be required to deal with the world, but that's no excuse to imply Aspies are the ones with the issue for seeing the world as a daunting, confusing place - often made confusing by public-admin inconsistencies generated by NT's.)

NT's put up barriers of perception that enable their limited attention spans to deal with one small piece at a time, but that also means they may miss the interconnections that may explain the whole. NT's have to rely on what they call their 'intuition', which is probably just the teeny Autistic-capable part of their brain flagging up that they are not seeing something obvious, if only they could expand and maintain their attention (maybe it'd help if the NT's could cut out all the emotional baggage that interferes with their 'logical' deductions).

NT's have physical disabilities too - anecdotally their sense of smell and hearing seem impaired (compared with Aspies/Autistics), they can't see fluorescent lights flashing blue and yellow (they sell monitors and televisions with such a bizarrely low refresh rate of 50 or 60Hz that most Autistic types can't look at it without their eyes watering - thank goodness for LCD monitors!). NT's illogical and irrational decisions are plain in many an administrative errors, who then try to cover up their mistakes rather than just saying 'I did that, sorry' like a typical Asperger spectrum type would. NT's also seem to have an impaired sense of touch and feel, though I have not noticed that they are more or less 'clumsy' than 'fully functional' Aspies/Autists. Maybe there is a balance between touch/sensitivity versus motive skills between the groups that renders no 'clumsiness disadvantage' one way or the other.

(These are my Aspie observations. I checked the script with my NT wife, to whom I have reflected on many anecdotes over the years that illustrate these matters, and she agrees that these are reasonable observations to make from my perspective.)

 

[Evo]

I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.

CMB, you sound as if you really have a chip on your shoulder. Your repeated attempts at making what is considered "normal" seem bad and deficient is a bit pathetic to be honest. It sounds like you have a lot of issues. You can stop your ranting now.

From my experience with people that I know have aspergers, you sound nothing like them.

 

[Evo]

Its not so much the intensity, as the end of the scale parameters they are on.

If you think of their consciousness as analogous to a telescope, those on one end of the spectrum are seeing life through the view finder...a tightly focused attention on a very narrow target, with nothing else in the field of view...

..and those on the other end of the spectrum are viewing life through the opposite end, blown up larger, with a wide field of view, but with blurs and distortions due to the "fish eye" effect, etc.

Its part of the same disorder, but there are two ends. For some, their telescope has a larger or smaller field of view...more like a spotting scope or opera glasses perhaps, and the distortions are less severe, from either end.

As people with Aspergers tend to be highly intelligent, and classically focused on a particular interest...they can become experts in a field, or incredible at pinball, or other specialized pursuit for example

Because of that focus though, the rest of the world doesn't register well. If you see through a telescope, and you are into dinosaurs as your focus...you are looking for dinosaur related opportunities so to speak, and ignoring the other topics.

A normal person will notice others yawning, or chewing their arms off to escape a dinosaur related discussion...and take appropriate actions, perhaps changing the subject for example. The Asperger sufferer will tend to be so into the dinosaur discussion, and so happy to be talking about dinosaurs to people, that he will fail to notice/register that those people are trying to escape, looking at their watches, yawning, feigning death, etc. HE'S having a great time.

The Asperger sufferer tends not to see himself reflected by others, self awareness can be very limited. Comments along the lines of "doesn't he see what he looks like?" would be more common, as they might be too focused on their particular interest, or anxiety, etc, to look at themselves, or on others' reaction to them. They tend to interact more with people as opposed to those with the narrow spectrum autism conditions, but to misinterpret the interactions.

The sufferers at the other end of the spectrum may not even acknowledge the existence of others, or of dinosaurs, but may be so tightly focused that all they are aware of is a spinning plate or a button, etc...and this is a much harder transition point socially, as other people are potentially not on their radar.

The autism is therefore present in different degrees and spectrum ends, and how that leaves the person with resources to compensate therefore varies greatly. Some can develop genuine and deep empathy for others, and eventually notice and redirect conversations or behavioral patterns accordingly, and others have less success, but, its always a question of degree.

What comes naturally to a normal person might take decades for a person with mild Aspergers, and never happen for a severe case.

So as to if the intense feelings can be misinterpreted by others as a social deficiency, well, its the expression mode of the intense feelings that lead to the interpretations.

IE: We might all get excited at a party if physics or one of our topics of interest is broached, but, most of us will tone down our responses based upon our perception of the others present, and allow the conversation to go where the group is interested naturally...and we might even have other interests we would be happy to converse about as well, etc...just like everyone else...

...but the Aspy might have trouble letting it go, or letting someone else talk, and might over react to the opportunity. You or I may feel a bit wistful if the topics we're most interested in seem to have been a merely passing mention, but the Aspy might get really angry or upset, and react as if he'd been attacked or affronted, perhaps insisting that the topic he's interested in be the one we all must discuss now. This will be interpreted as a social deficiency, as the actions will seem out of scale to the supposed infraction/issue.

As the medical problem itself impairs how one views and interprets others, its very nature reduces the ability to interact as easily.

This sounds so much like what I've seen from my aspie friends. Sometimes I wondered if I set off their behaviour so I have tried to stop arguing and just agree with them until they get it out of their system. They remind me of a bulldog that's sunk it's teeth into something and there is no use in trying to make them let go.

 

[Tea Jay]

I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations? None of the 'typical characteristics' given above about Asperger or Autism so far seem like any sort of 'disability', other than the fact that NT's are choosing to see them as disabilities. I consider it very judgemental. So what that a person doesn't look at you when you are talking with them? So what they get excited about something you find dull, but are blank about something you think they should be getting excited about? What's the issue? Why LABEL it as a deficiency?

I find typical NT's are typically deficient in many traits that I do not see for people I would regard to be comfortably within the Asperger spectrum.

My personal observations/interpretations:
NT's get overly emotional about matters they regard as personal sleights or signs of disrespect, their behaviour is capricious and inconsistent, they over-look the obvious, they decline to argue a point until each detail and element is properly resolved and seek to close down a discussion quick and disallow all the germane information to be raised (probably because it is an attention-span overload for them - and/or where they have an 'emotional attachment' to the point they are arguing), they use 'intuition' instead of logic or at least allow logic to be overruled by their 'feelings'. Worst of all they tell Aspergers types who see the world as a daunting, confusing place that it is because they, the Aspies, are the incapable ones and they have to learn to 'overcome their disability'; whereas in fact the world IS a confusing place and they are just seeing it for how it really is, all at once where an NT has mental blocks put in place that they do not see the bigger picture all in one go. (I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other. 'Coping strategies' may be required to deal with the world, but that's no excuse to imply Aspies are the ones with the issue for seeing the world as a daunting, confusing place - often made confusing by public-admin inconsistencies generated by NT's.)

NT's put up barriers of perception that enable their limited attention spans to deal with one small piece at a time, but that also means they may miss the interconnections that may explain the whole. NT's have to rely on what they call their 'intuition', which is probably just the teeny Autistic-capable part of their brain flagging up that they are not seeing something obvious, if only they could expand and maintain their attention (maybe it'd help if the NT's could cut out all the emotional baggage that interferes with their 'logical' deductions).

NT's have physical disabilities too - anecdotally their sense of smell and hearing seem impaired (compared with Aspies/Autistics), they can't see fluorescent lights flashing blue and yellow (they sell monitors and televisions with such a bizarrely low refresh rate of 50 or 60Hz that most Autistic types can't look at it without their eyes watering - thank goodness for LCD monitors!). NT's illogical and irrational decisions are plain in many an administrative errors, who then try to cover up their mistakes rather than just saying 'I did that, sorry' like a typical Asperger spectrum type would. NT's also seem to have an impaired sense of touch and feel, though I have not noticed that they are more or less 'clumsy' than 'fully functional' Aspies/Autists. Maybe there is a balance between touch/sensitivity versus motive skills between the groups that renders no 'clumsiness disadvantage' one way or the other.

(These are my Aspie observations. I checked the script with my NT wife, to whom I have reflected on many anecdotes over the years that illustrate these matters, and she agrees that these are reasonable observations to make from my perspective.)

These ARE reasonable observations for you to make, given that you do not understand the entire context, and instead focus on the part of the context of interest to you/on your personal radar.

So you are not wrong in your observations, just unaware of why they are incomplete.

My son would argue exactly as you would (And often does).

The fact is that all people behave along the same spectrum, and no one is "100%" at all times. We call these lapses faux pas, and other expressions where someone lapsed in their social awareness/behavior.

The people with aspergers simply are more at one end of that spectrum than most people, and, have trouble telling the difference between what is considered as acceptable and unacceptable, due to choosing different measurement parameters.

It would be analogous to the difference in lighting between two bulbs, one that glared and one that had a softer light, but both were the same watts/volts, etc. If I used a perfectly accurate light meter, and showed that both lights were producing the same light output...and I could not see glare, the people saying the one bulb's light was "softer" would just be making a silly illogical argument...as I had empirical data proving that the light was the same.
They would be correct about the glare you could not see, but, you would be unable to understand why they were worried about a factor that did not exist to you. You would be correct that the "facts" you chose supported your position, and you would be correct that they did not understand why you insisted on your position.

The problem is typically that you see their obstinateness in going on about "glare" as unreasonable and irrelevant to the topic. They see your obstinateness in only discussing the light meter results as unreasonable and irrelevant to the topic.

Normal people can look at both sides to an argument (Not that they all do of course), without only considering their own view point.

Telling someone with aspergers the above example might sometimes be like trying to explain blue to a blind man...and, many with aspergers will simply miss the point, and argue their original point, etc.

I have known several people afflicted with this, including my son, and the above patterns are pretty consistent. So, do not take this as a criticism or insult, but merely as an attempt to explain blue.

:DIn context of your view, people w/o aspergers are dishonest and do not share their feelings, keeping them bottled up or private, and who are unable to think as logically and clearly as you are, as your ability to focus on a problem is potentially far beyond what a non-aspy can do. Morally, there is no conflict, as you are essentially correct. Where the issues arise when you cannot relate with others is in social repercussions. If people avoid you because they find you rude or boring, or you embarrass them, etc, then you have fewer friends and/or acquaintances, and occasionally, fewer job openings. If you are ok with that, then it all works fine. If you want a person to want to be with you even though you embarrass them, bore them, or make them want to play dead hoping you'll go away...then it may not work fine. Ideally, given the constraints of the condition, you WILL find people who appreciate and love you for your attributes, and can tolerate your deficiencies. (When I say "you" in this post, I just mean someone with aspergers, not you the reader per se)

Just saw Evo's last post - This is a perfect example of an open minded NT trying to "get along with" an aspy...she knows they can't "let anything go", and so she pretends to agree so they will feel that they've "won", and that the other side "sees the light" finally, so the issue can be laid to rest.

The aspy is horrified to find that every last detail and fact has not been fully explored, and would see the above pretense as a nightmare scenario, because that would mean that they HAD TO keep arguing. Failure to be convincing on the part of an NT is very dangerous, if the aspy thinks they are not REALLY convinced. An aspy is obsessed with chasing down what they perceive as all the details. An NT is feeling like their life would be the same whether or not these particular details were explored, and therefore doesn't have any motivation to continue the exercise. In fact, the NT may feel like time that could be spent chasing down other details, that might have nothing to do with the aspies topic of concern, would be more productive. The aspy may not be able to grasp this, as the lure of the topic at hand, unresolved, is agonizing.

 

[cmb]

CMB, you sound as if you really have a chip on your shoulder. Your repeated attempts at making what is considered "normal" seem bad and deficient is a bit pathetic to be honest. It sounds like you have a lot of issues. You can stop your ranting now.

From my experience with people that I know have aspergers, you sound nothing like them.

The point of my post was to compare and contrast differences that are unnecessarily referred to, here, as 'deficiencies', 'problems' and 'symptoms'. Why does one group of people feel it is OK to label a set of behaviours different to their own as having 'symptoms' and 'problems'? And why do they react personally to it when they are met with similar language over their own behaviour?

 

[Evo]

These ARE reasonable observations for you to make, given that you do not understand the entire context, and instead focus on the part of the context of interest to you/on your personal radar.

You are a much better person than I. The people with aspergers I know do not criticize people that don't have aspergers, they don't make a distinction between the two and try to make themselves feel better by putting down those that don't have aspergers. It's usually the opposite.

Does your son verbally attack normal people for not having aspergers?

I know that it is common for people with aspergers to have other problems such as anxiety, feeling of incompetence, not being worthy, etc... Which is a shame as I find them to be better than average people in many ways.

 

[cmb]

So you are not wrong in your observations, just unaware of why they are incomplete.

My son would argue exactly as you would (And often does).

The fact is that all people behave along the same spectrum, and no one is "100%" at all times. We call these lapses faux pas, and other expressions where someone lapsed in their social awareness/behavior.

I do not disagree. Maybe by changing the language, then, we can encourage everyone to move to a common centre-ground of behavioural style, rather than delineating between the two that emphasises differences.

 

[Andre]

Thanks for your response. I'm sorry if you took offence of the term "social deficiencies" and of course many NT score way way sub norm too, no doubt.

I was thinking about things like difficulties in understanding emotions of others, putting oneselfs in their shoes to see things from their point of view, difficulties to be emphatic with others, or difficulties to recognise -face reading- emotions of the others, things like that. I just wondered if and why this is on the same dimension as hyper sensory issues.

I can imagine, with hyper sensitive senses, that live is overwhelming and as a result that this is misinterpreted as a social skill problem, while in reality one is very concerned socially. I mean Tea Jays point of telescopic view does not imply that an aspie would not care about others. On the contrary, I think they do, but they may not always be open for that due to the intensity of live.

On the other hand I can imagine that there are people with normal sensory functions, who can have severe social disabilities, unable to connect to others.

So to try again in other words, aren't there two axes, dimensions, or maybe four, intelligence, focus, sensory intensity and social skills/EQ, each independant of the others? and what label does one get if one is X on the intelligence scale, Y on focus, Z on sensory intensity and T on EQ?

 

[cmb]

You are a much better person than I. The people with aspergers I know do not criticize people that don't have aspergers, they don't make a distinction between the two and try to make themselves feel better by putting down those that don't have aspergers. It's usually the opposite.

Does your son verbally attack normal people for not having aspergers?

I know that it is common for people with aspergers to have other problems such as anxiety, feeling of incompetence, not being worthy, etc...

Just hang on a minute! What do you say *I* have said that is attacking someone for not having Aspergers?

Just take a look at your post above, post #6. Why was it OK to post a list of 'symptoms' for Apergers and in some way this isn't 'an attack', yet you regard it as an 'attack' when I post a list of my 'observations/interpretations' for NT's?

 

[cmb]

Thanks for your response. I'm sorry if you took offence of the term "social deficiencies"

No offence taken. The idea was that I would propose an 'alternative interpretation' that might help confront the language used, so that it might change to something more constructive.

 

[Astronuc]

In junior high school, I used to sit in the back of one my classrooms. I used to lean against the back wall, and occasionally bang my head gently against the wall - because it felt good. One day, a student came into the classroom with a message from the teacher in that other classroom to stop banging on the wall. I had no idea that I was banging my head hard enough to disrupt the classroom next door. Apparently is affected the chalkboard.

I also had ADD, and I had a hard time sitting still. I think I worried other kids around me.


As for senses, my hearing is pretty good. One day, my sixth grade teacher made the class be 'so quiet that one could hear a pin drop'. She actually took a pin and dropped it behind her desk. I could hear from my desk several rows back, and I called it. The teacher was surprised that I could actually hear it. None of the other kids could hear it.


I've never felt at a disadvantage or that I have some disorder. I'm just different.

 

[Astronuc]

. . . when I post a list of my 'observations/interpretations' for NT's?

One should not generalize to NT's, nor make the discussion personal, particulary responding to posts using the second person singular (you). It would have been more appropriate to write some NTs. NT is a spectrum just as AS. It's only a disorder if the symptoms prevent one from functioning in a positive/productive/orderly manner.

 

[Evo]

Just take a look at your post above, post #6. Why was it OK to post a list of 'symptoms' for Apergers and in some way this isn't 'an attack', yet you regard it as an 'attack' when I post a list of my 'observations/interpretations' for NT's?

Because the list of typical symptoms comes from many years of professional evaluation that has resulted in the list of chararcteristics that enable diagnosis.

Aspergers in the DSM V will be "autism spectrum disorder"

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=97

http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=94

 

[Evo]

Just saw Evo's last post - This is a perfect example of an open minded NT trying to "get along with" an aspy...she knows they can't "let anything go", and so she pretends to agree so they will feel that they've "won", and that the other side "sees the light" finally, so the issue can be laid to rest.

The aspy is horrified to find that every last detail and fact has not been fully explored, and would see the above pretense as a nightmare scenario, because that would mean that they HAD TO keep arguing. Failure to be convincing on the part of an NT is very dangerous, if the aspy thinks they are not REALLY convinced. An aspy is obsessed with chasing down what they perceive as all the details. An NT is feeling like their life would be the same whether or not these particular details were explored, and therefore doesn't have any motivation to continue the exercise. In fact, the NT may feel like time that could be spent chasing down other details, that might have nothing to do with the aspies topic of concern, would be more productive. The aspy may not be able to grasp this, as the lure of the topic at hand, unresolved, is agonizing.

Not at all. I've found that trying to get them to agree that they could be wrong is a waste of time. So I just let them let off steam, then the topic changes and everything is fine.

Are you saying that an endlessly pointless argument with someone with asperger's is going to be fruitful, or have any chance of a positive outcome? With my close friends, I usually say I'm not going to argue with them, and let them get it out of their system. This has been so much better than when I tried to make them see my point, it only got them very upset.

 

[Tea Jay]

I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations? None of the 'typical characteristics' given above about Asperger or Autism so far seem like any sort of 'disability', other than the fact that NT's are choosing to see them as disabilities. I consider it very judgemental. So what that a person doesn't look at you when you are talking with them? So what they get excited about something you find dull, but are blank about something you think they should be getting excited about? What's the issue? Why LABEL it as a deficiency?

I find typical NT's are typically deficient in many traits that I do not see for people I would regard to be comfortably within the Asperger spectrum.

My personal observations/interpretations:
NT's get overly emotional about matters they regard as personal sleights or signs of disrespect, their behaviour is capricious and inconsistent, they over-look the obvious, they decline to argue a point until each detail and element is properly resolved and seek to close down a discussion quick and disallow all the germane information to be raised (probably because it is an attention-span overload for them - and/or where they have an 'emotional attachment' to the point they are arguing), they use 'intuition' instead of logic or at least allow logic to be overruled by their 'feelings'. Worst of all they tell Aspergers types who see the world as a daunting, confusing place that it is because they, the Aspies, are the incapable ones and they have to learn to 'overcome their disability'; whereas in fact the world IS a confusing place and they are just seeing it for how it really is, all at once where an NT has mental blocks put in place that they do not see the bigger picture all in one go. (I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other. 'Coping strategies' may be required to deal with the world, but that's no excuse to imply Aspies are the ones with the issue for seeing the world as a daunting, confusing place - often made confusing by public-admin inconsistencies generated by NT's.)

NT's put up barriers of perception that enable their limited attention spans to deal with one small piece at a time, but that also means they may miss the interconnections that may explain the whole. NT's have to rely on what they call their 'intuition', which is probably just the teeny Autistic-capable part of their brain flagging up that they are not seeing something obvious, if only they could expand and maintain their attention (maybe it'd help if the NT's could cut out all the emotional baggage that interferes with their 'logical' deductions).

NT's have physical disabilities too - anecdotally their sense of smell and hearing seem impaired (compared with Aspies/Autistics), they can't see fluorescent lights flashing blue and yellow (they sell monitors and televisions with such a bizarrely low refresh rate of 50 or 60Hz that most Autistic types can't look at it without their eyes watering - thank goodness for LCD monitors!). NT's illogical and irrational decisions are plain in many an administrative errors, who then try to cover up their mistakes rather than just saying 'I did that, sorry' like a typical Asperger spectrum type would. NT's also seem to have an impaired sense of touch and feel, though I have not noticed that they are more or less 'clumsy' than 'fully functional' Aspies/Autists. Maybe there is a balance between touch/sensitivity versus motive skills between the groups that renders no 'clumsiness disadvantage' one way or the other.

(These are my Aspie observations. I checked the script with my NT wife, to whom I have reflected on many anecdotes over the years that illustrate these matters, and she agrees that these are reasonable observations to make from my perspective.)

I bolded a few (Example) areas where it might have given the impression that you were attacking NT's.

Again, this is a spectrum disorder, and everyone is somewhere on the spectrum at any given time. Aspies just tend to clump up at one end more than the other.

So, sure, an aspie can rate very highly for intelligence, but, typically at the expense of social skills. The aspies with the best combination are capable of great feats of concentration, and also of interacting with others at least sufficiently enough to get along.

My son was not very happy in grade school, he would pull his shirt over his head to shut people out, and other wise act a bit odd. The friends he had would play with him, but they might not want him along if going to the mall to pick up girls...he was a liability in that area due to the brutal honesty/inappropriate behavior thing, etc.

He did finish college, he did get a job as a tax auditor, and he did catch people cheating on taxes, sometimes by simply remembering another return that had conflicting information, and tying the two returns together, and then proving they were part of a fraud, etc.

When the state budget cuts came though, he was not "Net-worked" like some of his peers were (They were better liked as they got along with others better...), and he was furloughed to save money. (Repercussion of a deficiency in social skills)

There is a movement among some deaf parents to not ALLOW their deaf children to get operations that would restore their hearing. The parents felt that they did not feel that a lack of hearing was a deficiency, and that they were just as valuable a person as a hearing person. They pointed out that a deaf person can concentrate better as they have fewer distractions, etc.

They stated that it was a deficiency on the part of hearing people who refused to learn sign language or ensure that facilities would be equipped so as to recognize the deaf and their needs.

Analogously, I feel that they are correct about the value of the hearing and deaf being equal, but I disagree about deafness as not being a disability. Its simply harder to be deaf, just like it is harder to have aspergers.

Humans are social animals, as are most primates. A primate with impaired social capabilities has a deficiency in that area. If the primate can compensate for that deficiency with heightened capabilities in other areas, it is simply easier.

I'm sure the early cavemen would not have developed flint napping skills, etc, if not for some prehistoric aspy spending countless years working on it. And, the poor guy was probably bludgeoned to death when the other cavemen got tired of the guy going on and on about it.

 

[micromass]

In my observations, Aspergers often encounter considerable difficulties and have a lot of emotional problems. This is why Aspergers IS a deficiency: the condition causes suffering.

Conditions like depression, anxiety, etc. are also deficiencies. So most of the population in fact has some sort of deficiency.

There is no reason to become defensive and to claim that Aspergers is not a deficiency. If it causes significant sufferent, then it is a problem!

 

[Tea Jay]

Not at all. I've found that trying to get them to agree that they could be wrong is a waste of time. So I just let them let off steam, then the topic changes and everything is fine.

Are you saying that an endlessly pointless argument with someone with asperger's is going to be fruitful, or have any chance of a positive outcome? With my close friends, I usually say I'm not going to argue with them, and let them get it out of their system. This has been so much better than when I tried to make them see my point, it only got them very upset.

Actually, I'm agreeing with your findings. We both say NT's feign agreement to get the pit bulls to let go...I just pointed out that an aspy KNOWING you might be pretending is horrifying to THEM...and if you were caught it could be dangerous.

 

[cmb]

One should not generalize to NT's, nor make the discussion personal, particulary responding to posts using the second person singular (you). It would have been more appropriate to write some NTs. NT is a spectrum just as AS. It's only a disorder if the symptoms prevent one from functioning in a positive/productive/orderly manner.

&

I bolded a few (Example) areas where it might have given the impression that you were attacking NT's.

Apologies, where due. I concede these points. No offence was intended. (If anything, as has been noted, where I have not noticed matters that could be interpreted personally it is a display of some of the issues in hand.)

 

[bm0p700f]

I know exactly what Asperger's is I am a teacher and ahave taught many with the condition. See [ost 2 and post 3 folk so you where this is coming from. In my opinion the problems are two way and come from a lack of understanding of how aspergers effects people. Once you understand how to communicate and interact with someone with aspergers most of these "problems" are not problems at all. At least that is my experience of teaching.

 

[Tea Jay]

&Apologies, where due. I concede these points. No offence was intended. (If anything, as has been noted, where I have not noticed matters that could be interpreted personally it is a display of some of the issues in hand.)

Don't worry, in a case like this, I think everyone is aware of the contexts. A forum where everyone can discuss things like this openly is a great gift. Its a melting pot of ideas and perceptions, we are all all richer for the experience.

 

[Evo]

For me, my biggest shortcoming/hurdle to overcome was realizing when I was guilty of "information overload". Too much information/emotions for them to deal with, it takes a while to learn when you are overloading. It could just be me venting about coworkers and clients after a day at work. One friend would just stop me and say "ok, this is another "deer in the headlights" moment, I have no idea why you are angry at your cell phone". Or I'd share lyrics to a song and they would reply that they couldn't understand the "meaning". After awhile you learn more about how they use and deal with information. Their minds are fascinating. It does take a lot of trial and error at first, but well worth it.

 

[Tea Jay]

For me, my biggest shortcoming/hurdle to overcome was realizing when I was guilty of "information overload". Too much information/emotions for them to deal with, it takes a while to learn when you are overloading. It could just be me venting about coworkers and clients after a day at work. One friend would just stop me and say "ok, this is another "deer in the headlights" moment, I have no idea why you are angry at your cell phone". Or I'd share lyrics to a song and they would reply that they couldn't understand the "meaning". After awhile you learn more about how they use and deal with information. Their minds are fascinating. It does take a lot of trial and error at first, but well worth it.

Definitely.

We over load them with emotions or similar concepts they can't deal with well, they overload us with data quantities or qualities we can't deal with well.

The mental processes ARE fascinating. You can see deep into their minds when you get their feedback on what you gave them...and it will potentially be a perspective that was unexpected/unwarranted, but, also potentially unique and interesting.

 

[JDStupi]

cmb, I would like to say that I do not really find anything wrong with what you are saying, in fact I find it I find it interesting, because no clear reason can be given as to why you are "wrong". I do think you are right in saying that people may accept something as being "normal", but this is merely a contingent state of affairs, but when the "norm" is questioned they may get overly emotional rather than look at the facts. This may be because people have lived out their entire lives in accordance with "the norms" and so norms form a bedrock for their lives and when they are questioned people feel like a compass in a Faraday Cage. I am almost positive that this is not a NT thing, this is a human thing:The tenacious clingling to core beliefs as a sense of guidance and direction.

I don't know.

I am "NT" as you call it, but I am aware of these things, to a certain extent. I see that what you are saying is that, it is because of the NT's that you are considered "abnormal" and it is simply because you cannot play life by their rules that you are labelled as something "deficient". This is largely true (not that you are deficient necessarily, haha). Also, what you are saying about attentiveness to stimuli is also true, we see things very different. It is all about adaptivity to your environment. I will also agree with others in saying you almost sounded as though you were attacking NT's insinuating that it was their problem they could not do the things you could. This is not the way we want the dialogue to proceed, that is just the same song with a different arrangement. We don't want to jump between black and white.

I do not know much about your type, so tell me. How does the fact that you are a sort emotional outcast make you feel? Emotions and social rewards are largely a strong motivator for behavior. I can almost sense some degree of anger and frustration with "NT"s treatment of you. So, you too need some degree of attention and affection, or that is what I read out of that. How are you emotionally affected by the misunderstanding? How does it affect your sense of self that you are consistently treated differently?

NT's as you call them often are emotionally motivated by feelings of social approbation. Their "ego" is intimatley connected to feeling valued by others, in a social and romantic context. Not all, of course, but for many this is a source of unhealthy cycles. Even the healthy do this, the difference between "healthy" and "unhealthy" can simply be the social acceptability of the pursued channels.

We NT's do silly things in relationships and I suspect you are right that many are so wrapped up in pursuing social approbation in some sense or another that they miss the beauty of the everyday: Nature, ideas and the now. I just do not know to what extent you are motivated by others to do certain things, and that can be a beautiful experience. That is part of it all, realizing that many social conventions and personal emotional issues are highly arbitrary results of past contingencies, but if you wish to be able to explore the way in which others experience and view the world, from the inside in a way, you need to try to compromise or adapt to them. This is only valid for "NT"s though. I don't know if you even have that motivating factor as strongly as we, but do not be misled by the behavior of many, it can be a beautiful thing. Sometimes you find that two people can be nothing alike, but by compromising and staying attuned to each others non-verbal communication you can develop a close relationship. This is what is most interesting to me about you. How would you develop a relationship? A romantic one. Often times, relationships between unlikely pairs develop because of their attunement to each others non-verbal behaviors and their appreciation for their differences. For you it seems this is so much harder to do.

The world is largely arbitrary, whether you are an aspy or an NT. Either way you are not going to "chase down the details". The bewildering complexity is there, you are right and often times people miss it.


We all want to feel valued, that's why you are frustrated. That is why somebody posted somethingh where the aspes said "We couldn't have any scientists, engineers etc without aspies". That is a stupid quote. It is wrong. To suggest that it is because of aspies that we have all these great things is luancy and is just an attempt to overcompensate for your perceived deficiences. It is a rhetorical tool to balance the perception of you as "deficient". That is not to say aspies are not great scientists and engineers or whatever, simply to say that so are "NT's" and I used that to show that we also have a lot in common emotionally. That tactic is an irrational tactic that "NT's" use as well.

I think you could stand to learn something from us just as we can stand to learn something from you.

Sorry for the long, meandering post

 

[cmb]

Thanks for the post/interest JD. I was thinking over some of this post while I was away.

cmb, I would like to say that I do not really find anything wrong with what you are saying, in fact I find it I find it interesting, because no clear reason can be given as to why you are "wrong". I do think you are right in saying that people may accept something as being "normal", but this is merely a contingent state of affairs

Exactly. The point of what I wrote above was that if, say, some 3 foot tall extraterrestrials arrived, their 'biologists' would report back that humans are tall, whereas humans would describe them as 'short'. So where I was suggesting 'humans are overly emotional', this was not me trying to present some new information, but merely a re-interpretation of extant NT comments about Aspergers - why describe them as 'having limited emotional expression', why do NT's not, alternatively, describe themselves as having relatively excessively expressive emotions?

But, hey, I think we've beaten than horse and can move on...

I do not know much about your type, so tell me. How does the fact that you are a sort emotional outcast make you feel? Emotions and social rewards are largely a strong motivator for behavior. I can almost sense some degree of anger and frustration with "NT"s treatment of you. So, you too need some degree of attention and affection, or that is what I read out of that. How are you emotionally affected by the misunderstanding? How does it affect your sense of self that you are consistently treated differently?

To answer the question directly; I feel very little sense of 'external referencing' that has any impact on me at all. I have no qualms about doing the most unconventional thing, if I see it as the logical and optimum way of doing something. I can't think of any particularly good examples off the top of my head; how about asking for ice cubes in your beer to stop it going warm? Or trying out crisps (US=chips) in the middle of the supermarket to make sure they are fresh and crunchy, then buying a trolley worth of the rest with the same batch code if I like them? The only limit is that I do tend to behave in a way that doesn't make others uncomfortable, but only to the extent that it serves to avoid impacting the way they choose to interact with me.

I do not regard 'I' as 'what I am', but rather 'what I do'. I am a 'Human Doing'. 'Being' seems pointless to me without the 'Doing'.

Frankly, I find the idea of being a recipient of 'affection' from the outside world somewhat uncomfortable. However, there are rewards to be gained from such an interaction, the most particular being that I see people responding favourably to the things I do. It is most important to me that people have the best regard for the things I do, rather than the person I am.

But I would like to clarify - I don't think I am a typical Aspie. That's why I didn't describe myself as one. A couple of years back my wife encouraged me to go with her to see a guy who specialised in helping NT/Aspie couples. He, literally, wrote the book on it. He recognised I was not just Aspie but more so, with a million coping strategies all laid over each other that would appear 'wierd' to the norm, or maybe even the Aspie. Some of which I wonder how much is instinct and how much are acquired defence mechanisms. I can't figure it out any more. Anyhow, he concluded I was a 'unique' case.

Maybe stretching Evo analogy too far, the 'deer in headlights' does certainly apply to me, but my reaction is quite different to most that I see. The difference is that I don't freeze. Whereas an NT would simply step off the road, and an Aspie gets confused, my mission seems absolutely clear - I charge the on-coming car! This is how life took me when I was a wee boy; life came charging up at me in my adolescence but rather than back down I charged back at the challenge. Too much to go into in this post, but my life has been one of 'excess' achievement, one of 'over-compensating', perhaps?

The thing is this; I cannot decide if this was because I had instinctive coping strategies, or whether I learned them. I know that I see the world in a wholly different way to NT, and to most Aspies too. Ideas/issues are like objects to me. They 'appear' as physical lumps of a thing. I can't really describe it in a better way than that which might make sense, but, for example, if I am in a meeting and there is something not yet being discussed and missed, it literally appears in the room as clear as a chair or a table would be there to someone else. Also, I have a very strong association with places for particular methods/ techniques/ concepts, and, naturally, one of these 'idea' object may appear in a particular 'place', associated with a solution, before I have had time to even 'think' about it.

So we return to your question; I do not think NT or Aspies have any difference in their emotions, but they surely deal with them differently. To me, a 'feeling' or 'emotion' is a textured object. They, at minimum, have texture and some basic shape. If I think hard I can usually associate a specific colour/smell/sound with them too. Ultimately, I do not think I 'feel' the experience in the way I comprehend others doing so. Some years ago, a friend whom I had known for a few months was talking about my behaviours and he said he felt I did have all the 'usual' emotions, but that I put each in its own little box, and I could put it on a shelf if I didn't want it, or pick it up and use it somehow. I'm not sure how true that is, but there again I'm not looking at that objectively and it does chime in with the above description I'm giving.

Finally, I come on to considering whether any of this means anything useful to anyone else. I think it does. I look at Aspies and Autists and see a bundle of drivers and motivations, which seem clear enough to me, pushing them on to behave as they do. Whereas NT's look at them and deduce 'symptoms' and 'deficiencies'. It's like Aspies are standing on the surface of a ball, I'm inside the ball looking out, NT's on the outside looking down. We get a different picture.

From that perspective, what I would speculate is happening/has happened is that NT's cope with the world by limiting their attention. Their brains instinctively screen the outside world, they scan it for what looks the most relevant thing to them at the time. This works fine for the most part (but can tend to fail with overload/too many details/previous experience [emotional attachments] with some of the issue). I cope with the world in a wholly different way - everything comes flowing in and is 'translated' into a landscape of objects, textures, colours and patterns. I put them in that order. 'Texture' seems to play most strongly for me, personally. Whereas I look at some Aspies and they don't appear to have any coping strategy at all and just flunk out from the overload.

What might this tell us? I think, in general, NT's who help Aspies deal with the world don't understand that NT coping mechanisms might not work for the Aspie. If that is true, there is no point giving them advice to 'do things slowly' or 'write things down, orderly' or even to try to pay attention to other things, as an NT would. So can Aspies be taught to deal with the world by formulating the full flood of information they get into manageable objects, like I seem to do? I can't answer that one. It seems to be a natural thing to do, I am not aware that I have consciously chosen to do this, so to not do it would seem as alien as being asked to do it if I weren't already doing so. So maybe the NT's coping strategies are as good as can be offered most functionally disabled Aspie/Autist, but it does give a little hope that, perhaps, there are ways to coach some Aspies to deal with the world in a way more natural for them?(PS - I think I have trumped you on post length!)

 

[zoobyshoe]

I could rephrase that; I wonder if the over-heightened sense of personal emotional attachments for NT's means that they are unable to engage as strongly with their 'non-people' experiences as Asperger-spectrum people.

You're missing Andre's point, which is that people with Asperger's and Autism often experience what should be neutral sensory experiences as unnaturally intense. This isn't a matter of interpretation: these experiences cause no damage and represent no danger, yet their intensity to the AS spectrum person is as if they did. There is a current theory that distraction by this sensory overload is what prevents people on the AS from learning basic elements of social interaction. In other words, the proposition is that As people have no particular neurological deficiencies in processing social cues, etc, rather, the problem is that they are unable to develop them due to constant distraction by overly intense sensory experiences.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations?

This is very disingenuous of you, and is obviously not what is going on. I am sure you're familiar with lots of the literature and can figure out why certain aspects of the condition are viewed as liabilities rather than neutral alternate ways of dealing with things. People aren't categorically called "deficient" for behaving contrary to expectation. That's an untenable claim. People are often praised and celebrated for behaving contrary to expectation in any case where it doesn't create problems. In cases where it does create problems, it's the problems that are objected to, not the contrary-to-expectation part.

 

[cmb]

You're missing Andre's point, which is that people with Asperger's and Autism often experience what should be neutral sensory experiences as unnaturally intense.

I'm not aware that I had intended to make any response to Andre's point at all. I was merely picking up on the language of 'deficiency' when 'difference' would have been sufficient.

In regards Andre's specific point, whether sensory overload relates to different social interaction skills, I don't have much of an opinion. But I'd take a stab at it by referring to my previous answers - NT's single out the 'personal interaction' element of their immediate surroundings by blocking out other information, whereas an Aspie type would need to deal with all the other inputs simultaneously. So in that regard, I'd say there is mileage in that view, but that it is not necessarily related to 'learning'. It's just in their nature.

I should add, there is a point (for me too) where one's awareness goes into 'lock-down', which would, clearly, tend to be more likely for those with less coping strategies. Same for NT's I am sure, but different drivers. There can be too much to deal with (even with strategies in place) and whereas the NT tends to go for 'fight or flight' type responses, Aspies tend to begin fixation methods. They wander off into a mental space with things in it they are comfortable dealing with, then close the door.

Why do NT's feel it is OK to declare that a person is 'deficient' simply because they behave differently to their expectations?

This is very disingenuous of you, and is obviously not what is going on.

OK, let's start that one again: Is it OK to apply the term 'deficient' and 'having a neurological condition' to a group of people, many of whom are perfectly at ease with themselves and get on just fine in the world? This is a spectrum of condition expressed in as many forms as there are individuals in it, yet these terms are being bandied around in reference to that spectrum, rather than being used in regards complications that might, particularly, arise for people on it.

Why should people who cope perfectly well with the world be put into a category that some have labelled as being characterised by 'deficiencies'?

 

[Evo]

OK, let's start that one again: Is it OK to apply the term 'deficient' and 'having a neurological condition' to a group of people, many of whom are perfectly at ease with themselves and get on just fine in the world? This is a spectrum of condition expressed in as many forms as there are individuals in it, yet these terms are being bandied around in reference to that spectrum, rather than being used in regards complications that might, particularly, arise for people on it.

Why should people who cope perfectly well with the world be put into a category that some have labelled as a 'deficiency'?

If they have the deficiencies, then it is appropriate. You are not going to convince anyone that if they are happy in their abnormal world that they are normal in society as a whole.

This has gotten off topic, and has been moved to medical sciences, so going forward, please post valid medical studies that back up your personal opinions.

 

[atyy]

If they have the deficiencies, then it is appropriate. You are not going to convince anyone that if they are happy in their abnormal world that they are normal in society as a whole.

This has gotten off topic, and has been moved to medical sciences, so going forward, please post valid medical studies that back up your personal opinions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11014749
Is asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a disability?

 

[Evo]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11014749
Is asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a disability?

Like I said, if they have deficiencies/issues/whatever you want to call it that fit with the diagnostic criteria, then yes. If they are so *high functioning* that it causes no problems, I doubt they would even be under psychiatric care to get diagnosed.

I posted the proposed diagnostic criteria from the DSM V in an earlier post.

 

[cmb]

Like I said, if they have deficiencies/issues/whatever you want to call it...

'...whatever you want to call it...'

IF a group of people is diagnosed by a set of criteria in which none are 'deficiencies' in themselves, the use of the term with respect to the group is pejorative. There is no 'whatever you want to call it', the use of the term would be wrong, given the criteria you, yourself, have provided (unless the term is used specifically in discussion of another matter which is a deficiency).