Travel 10x the Speed of Light: Warp Drive Explained

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I was reading this article today: http://news.yahoo.com/warp-drive-may-more-feasible-thought-scientists-161301109.html

and in it it states this:

With this concept, the spacecraft would be able to achieve an effective speed of about 10 times the speed of light, all without breaking the cosmic speed limit.

How did they come to the figure of 10*C? Is it a matter of energy input to speed output?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I'm guessing they had some ideas about the material properties in the ring and the amount of curvature they might expect to get out of it. I wonder if we can find the publication on which this story is based... Might have more info.

Glad you posted this question -- that was a cool link to read!
 
The author of that study has actually posted in the comments here: http://www.icarusinterstellar.org/daydreaming-beyond-the-solar-system-with-warp-field-mechanics/. Looks like it is not published at the moment, so we can't see the details of the analysis. This also says how he came up with a reduced energy requirement: "the energy requirements can be greatly reduced by first optimizing the warp bubble thickness, and further by oscillating the bubble intensity to reduce the stiffness of space time". Interesting to see that something we have always thought of as a absolute physical restriction (the speed of light) can be overcome in some clever way without even appealing to a new theory (not counting the wormhole solution of course).
 
Would warp drive be a external force or internal forces. Any experts please Help. -dcooper
 
dcooper said:
Would warp drive be a external force or internal forces. Any experts please Help. -dcooper
Neither. The ship does not actually undergo acceleration. It's the make the mountain come to you type of deal.
 
how do we define the speed anyways??
 
I never quite understood that. Where is the equal-and-opposite-reaction felt? Forces must be involved, at least around the bubble where spacetime is forced to curve. Or is it more like a wave in water and the forces are between the parts of spacetime itself?

But even in that case, wouldn't you at least experience a strong tidal and gravitational pull as the spacetime beneath you became arched between the front and back of the bubble?
 
Are we really taking this seriously...
 
  • #10
HomogenousCow said:
how do we define the speed anyways??
Local or global? There is a huge difference, which is why this thing works at all. Local speed is limited to c. Global is not.
Are we really taking this seriously...
Absolutely. I mean, it only works on paper so far, but it's based on General Relativity, and that stuff has been verified to 11 orders of magnitude. So it's probably right. Or at least, precise enough for this to work.

Note, this is still note technologically feasible, and whether it ever will be is an open question. The new computation just bring us one step closer.

Zmunkz said:
I never quite understood that. Where is the equal-and-opposite-reaction felt? Forces must be involved, at least around the bubble where spacetime is forced to curve. Or is it more like a wave in water and the forces are between the parts of spacetime itself?

But even in that case, wouldn't you at least experience a strong tidal and gravitational pull as the spacetime beneath you became arched between the front and back of the bubble?
Again, the craft does not accelerate. There are no forces. You might need to have some velocity relative to destination point, which would be achieved with conventional rockets. But the warp drive itself does not provide a force of any kind.

The space-time inside the bubble is flat. No tidal forces either.

Edit: Though, I have no idea what happens to interstellar dust in all of this. I don't know if anybody tried making computations that account for it.
 
  • #11
Here's a question:
Suppose, for the sake of argument that this line of thinking eventually enables us to transport a massive object, say a message written on a piece of paper, or a bomb, or a person, or whatever between two points in spacetime that are spacelike separated. (If we can't do this, it's not an especially cool and interesting "warp drive":smile:).

What good paradoxes can we construct under this assumption?

My personal definition of a good paradox: A good paradox will be short and easily described (think bug-rivet or pole-barn), will conflict strongly with our intuition of what is physically reasonable ("Hey - I just killed my grandfather!"), and will tell us something interesting when we've resolved it (think Bell's spaceship).
 
  • #12
HomogenousCow said:
Are we really taking this seriously...

I think they may well be.
I think an eye of newt and toe of frog may be called for soon. :wink:
 
  • #13
Nugatory said:
What good paradoxes can we construct under this assumption?
No true paradoxes, but there might be some interesting things that seem like paradoxes. Though, pole-barn paradox is in the same category, so that's probably what you are thinking of.

The biggest conceptual "problem" with FTL travel is that it violates causality. Causality is a local concept in GR, which is why Warp Drive can exist, but it's a bit hard for people to wrap their mind around global causality violations.

Look at the same pole-barn paradox. It seems like a paradox because order of events appears to switch. But in order for this to happen, the two events must be space-like separated. In other words, closing of the first barn door cannot be the cause of second door opening. If you rig the second door to open only after the first one closed, the pole will ram into the second door in every frame, because the signal required to open the door has not had time to propagate. This is effectively how pole-barn paradox is resolved. Yes, order of events is frame-dependent, but effect always follows cause in every frame.

But if instead of the light beam signal from first door to second I send information with a tiny warp drive ship, the information can actually arrive in time. I can have the second bar door open as response to first door closing, and do so in time for the pole to go through. Now the situation becomes truly bizarre from pole-bearer's perspective. He knows that the second door will only open after the first one closes, but he observes the second door opening before the first door closed. The effect precedes the cause.

That's the sort of "paradoxes" that we can expect with a warp drive.

Notice that these still don't cause any real contradictions. Yes, causality is a frame-dependent concept now. But even though there is a frame of reference in which you can have results of the lottery drawing before the drawing took place, there is no way to make use of that information.

Of course, GR also allows time travel, so apparently, knowing results in advance and being able to act on it would not be a problem either. But that's a separate discussion all together.
 
  • #14
K^2 said:
No true paradoxes, but there might be some interesting things that seem like paradoxes. Though, pole-barn paradox is in the same category, so that's probably what you are thinking of.

Well, I was kinda hoping for a true paradox, a genuine logical inconsistency that would spare us the search for Sophiecentaur's "eye of newt and toe of frog".:smile:
 
  • #15
There aren't any. GR allows for space-time configurations that allow exceeding speed of light. GR is a self-consistent theory, so there cannot be any true paradoxes from that alone.

It's a different question of whether any of these things are practically achievable. Original Alcubierre Drive requires negative energy densities. I have no idea if this issue was ever resolved. But if not, that's the biggest hurdle. It might make Warp Drive an impossibility despite being entirely consistent with all other physics.

Edit: Though, GR solutions for closed world lines do exist with positive energies only. And if you can time-travel, you can FTL travel.
 
  • #16
K^2 said:
It's a different question of whether any of these things are practically achievable. Original Alcubierre Drive requires negative energy densities. I have no idea if this issue was ever resolved. But if not, that's the biggest hurdle. It might make Warp Drive an impossibility despite being entirely consistent with all other physics.

Does it require absolute negative energy density or can the energy density be negative relative to an arbitrary zero? For example, if I fill a chamber with ambient radiation, then somehow exclude that radiation from certain regions, will the excluded regions function as negative energy regions for the purposes of building an Alcubierre drive that carries somethi across the chamber?
 
  • #17
mrspeedybob said:
Does it require absolute negative energy density or can the energy density be negative relative to an arbitrary zero? For example, if I fill a chamber with ambient radiation, then somehow exclude that radiation from certain regions, will the excluded regions function as negative energy regions for the purposes of building an Alcubierre drive that carries somethi across the chamber?
I believe it would suffice. In fact, it seems that hopes of achieving negative energies in vacuum lie in finding ways of lowering vacuum energy locally. Casimir Effect is a favorite for that. This note in Wikipedia article on the effect comes with some references.

The solutions I've seen for traversible wormholes do, in fact, require negative energy densities same as Alcubierre Drive. So it would seem that the energy just has to be negative relative to the energy of the surrounding medium. Keep in mind that I'm not an expert on GR, however. I can do the math on the level required to show that Alcubierre Drive works in principle, but that's about it.

It's also worth nothing that predictions of vacuum energy based on RQFT and on measurements of cosmological constant disagree by something like 100 orders of magnitude. There is some good recent evidence that <q\bar{q}> condensate should be excluded, but that still only brings down the error to something like 20 orders of magnitude. That suggests that there might be something important we are missing in underlying physics that leads up to Casimir Effect.
 
  • #18
Nugatory said:
What good paradoxes can we construct under this assumption?

It's not a true paradox, but the Fermi Paradox comes into play if this drive can be built. I suppose that's evidence against the likelihood of actually being able to construct it...
 
  • #19
Or just limitations. I mean, even if 10c is achievable with this, it gives us practical access to maybe a few thousand stars. Odds of none of them having a civilization advanced enough for a visit over the past few thousand years are actually pretty high, even if we assume that Earth's evolution is fairly typical.
 
  • #20
I read the original article way back when. The 10c is a result of bad journalism.

The guy (Harold White) was using an arbitary example to explain it. He says something like, "if you were going at 0.1c and had a (multiplier?) of 100, your ship would be going at 10c"

Somehow the press interepreted that as warp drives traveled at 10c.

I will try to find the original article.

edit: I found it.
Within the shell thickness of the warp bubble region, the spacecraft never locally breaks the speed of light and the net effect as seen by earth/ship observers is analogous to watching a film in fast forward. Consider the following to help illustrate the point – assume the spacecraft heads out towards Alpha Centauri and has a conventional propulsion system capable of reaching 0.1c. The spacecraft initiates a boost field with a value of 100 which acts on the initial velocity resulting in an apparent speed of 10c.

The source is here, in Harold White's paper

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110015936_2011016932.pdf

Science journalists - can't live with them, can't live without them
 
  • #21
Anything you track down that's closer to original than what goes into press would be great. I was trying to find some conference papers, or something, but haven't been successful.
 
  • #22
See the edit
 
  • #23
K^2 said:
Or just limitations. I mean, even if 10c is achievable with this, it gives us practical access to maybe a few thousand stars. Odds of none of them having a civilization advanced enough for a visit over the past few thousand years are actually pretty high, even if we assume that Earth's evolution is fairly typical.
you say maybe a few thousand stars, does this include time dilation.
Couldn't we get to a bunch of stars at .9c when we factor in time dilation.
Cause our clock is running slow.
 
  • #24
Accelerating to .9c is very, very difficult. It takes a huge amount of energy to maintain it as well, because of all the interstellar dust. I don't know if warp drive actually helps with that, though.

d3mm, thanks for the link.
 
  • #25
plenty of things can be observed to be moving at superluminal speeds
 
  • #26
cragar said:
you say maybe a few thousand stars, does this include time dilation.

Note that time dilation does not occur for warp travel, so any accounting we do down this line of thought considers conventional propulsion explorers only.
 
  • #27
Zmunkz said:
Note that time dilation does not occur for warp travel, so any accounting we do down this line of thought considers conventional propulsion explorers only.
I'd have to take a look at the metric a bit more carefully, but I'm pretty sure some time dilation will occur with warp drive. It can be made arbitrarily close to unity with stronger "warp field". But I don't think it can be reduced exactly to unity.
 
  • #28
HomogenousCow said:
Are we really taking this seriously...

It's making a theoretically testable prediction, and not violating any existing theories (well maybe a few but nothing seemingly fundamental)

Why would it not be taken seriously?
 
  • #29
d3mm said:
Science journalists - can't live with them, can't live without them

You sure about that?:biggrin:
 
  • #30
K^2 said:
I'd have to take a look at the metric a bit more carefully, but I'm pretty sure some time dilation will occur with warp drive. It can be made arbitrarily close to unity with stronger "warp field". But I don't think it can be reduced exactly to unity.

If this is within your capabilities I would be very interested to hear your full analysis. I went back to the Wikipedia article, from where my statement came, and found that particular claim is lacking a citation and may well be in error.
 
  • #31
The bottom line is surely the question of whether the Warp Field has ever actually been observed or generated. Everything I read seems to start, basically, with the word "if". It there anything I could read which starts with "we have done the following"?
 
  • #32
Zmunkz said:
If this is within your capabilities I would be very interested to hear your full analysis.
It certainly is within my capabilities, since the metric is completely defined, but the algebra might get messy. I'll take a look at it. Maybe I can make Mathematica do bulk of the work for me.
sophiecentaur said:
The bottom line is surely the question of whether the Warp Field has ever actually been observed or generated. Everything I read seems to start, basically, with the word "if". It there anything I could read which starts with "we have done the following"?
Geenral Relativity is a bit like Evolution. Experiments we can do in the lab to confirm them are very limited, but observational evidence is so overwhelming that everyone believes that they work.

On one hand, there are a lot of predictions of GR that people take to be true without any evidence simply because they believe in GR. Gravitational waves have not been observed. Neither has any of the crazier physics related to black holes. But when GR explains to 11 decimal places something that happens to a remote pulsar that according to classical physics shouldn't be happening at all, it's difficult not to believe in GR's predictions.

Fortunately, this is one of the few cases where we can see an actual result before we are anywhere near ability to do this on true scale. If the interferometry experiment works out, we'll have confirmation that the effect exists, even if we aren't certain in its magnitude.
 
  • #33
I guess we need to watch this space.
I must admit, though, that I find it troubling that a fanciful TV series can generate so much 'belief'. The followers of Start Trek are mostly totally irrational (as with all entertainment fans) so Star Trek topics ring bells with me.
I am sure that people really do believe in dilithium crystals too!
 
  • #34
sophiecentaur said:
I must admit, though, that I find it troubling that a fanciful TV series can generate so much 'belief'. The followers of Start Trek are mostly totally irrational (as with all entertainment fans) so Star Trek topics ring bells with me.
It has nothing to do with Star Trek except for the name. Somebody called it a "warp drive" after the one in the show, and the name stuck.

Alcubierre drive is a serious mathematical model motivated by our best understanding of physics of space-time. Its author, Miguel Alcubierre, is current director of Nuclear Sciences Institute at UNAM. And while the drive itself is entirely hypothetical, the physics behind it is General Relativity, which is one of the most successful scientific theories ever.

Alcubierre drive, as originally stated, has serious limitations. This new research will significantly improve on that. There might be some error in these new adjustments. That remains to be seen. But the principle of what we call a Warp Drive is absolutely solid.
 
  • #35
OK. I am very relieved. But it shows the power of 'the icon' in our personal view of the world. I should have known better, when so many reputable PF contribs were taking it all so seriously.
 
  • #36
K^2 said:
No true paradoxes, but there might be some interesting things that seem like paradoxes. Though, pole-barn paradox is in the same category, so that's probably what you are thinking of.

The biggest conceptual "problem" with FTL travel is that it violates causality. Causality is a local concept in GR, which is why Warp Drive can exist, but it's a bit hard for people to wrap their mind around global causality violations.

Look at the same pole-barn paradox. It seems like a paradox because order of events appears to switch. But in order for this to happen, the two events must be space-like separated. In other words, closing of the first barn door cannot be the cause of second door opening. If you rig the second door to open only after the first one closed, the pole will ram into the second door in every frame, because the signal required to open the door has not had time to propagate. This is effectively how pole-barn paradox is resolved. Yes, order of events is frame-dependent, but effect always follows cause in every frame.

But if instead of the light beam signal from first door to second I send information with a tiny warp drive ship, the information can actually arrive in time. I can have the second bar door open as response to first door closing, and do so in time for the pole to go through. Now the situation becomes truly bizarre from pole-bearer's perspective. He knows that the second door will only open after the first one closes, but he observes the second door opening before the first door closed. The effect precedes the cause.

That's the sort of "paradoxes" that we can expect with a warp drive.

Notice that these still don't cause any real contradictions. Yes, causality is a frame-dependent concept now. But even though there is a frame of reference in which you can have results of the lottery drawing before the drawing took place, there is no way to make use of that information.

Of course, GR also allows time travel, so apparently, knowing results in advance and being able to act on it would not be a problem either. But that's a separate discussion all together.

So, let's say I am on Earth and I have a ship going away from Earth at a significant fraction of c. What happens if I try to send the lottery numbers to it using the miniature warp drive and have it send them back to me as soon as it receives them, again using a miniature warp drive? Is it not possible to receive the numbers before the lottery draw this way? If not, what exactly would prevent this scenario?
 
  • #37
K^2 said:
Of course, GR also allows time travel

Hi can you direct me to a reference for this? wiki page mentions "certain unusual scenarios" under which it might be allowed.
 
  • #38
I think I found the answer to my question in the paper "Warp drive and causality" by "Allen E. Everett": http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1996PhRvD..53.7365E (http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences...tt - Warp drive and causality - prd950914.pdf)

In the space described by Eq.10 there is a region within
one of the bubbles, both in the primed and unprimed coordi-
nates, in which the ‘‘forward’’ light cone runs backward in
time, and CTC’s occur. Suppose a passenger leaves S1 on a
spaceship traveling in the unprimed bubble, starting at
t=t'=0, moving along the line y=y0, and arriving at S2 at
t~=0, t'=T'~=-yBD, at which point the spaceship has
come to rest and the bubble has disappeared. He now travels
the short distance to y=-y0 at subluminal speed through
flat space, and accelerates to sublight velocity B, so as to be
at rest in the primed coordinates. [We assume that this pro-
cess requires negligible time since y<<D and, from Eq. ͑7͒,
B may be small when A is large.] The passenger can then
board a second spaceship bubble and travels back to S1 in the
primed bubble, arriving at t=T1=-BD, thus arriving home
before starting by a macroscopic time interval and carrying a
newspaper reporting on events which have not yet occurred.
This, of course, raises the problems with paradoxes always
associated with closed causal loops. It would appear pos-
sible, e.g., to arrange a mechanism which ensures that a
spaceship will depart from S1 at t=0 if and only if no news
of such an event has arrived from S2 at t<0. This does not
mean that a model of the type introduced in MA is ruled out
as being logically inconsistent, but it does mean that in such
a model there are restrictions placed on the initial conditions.
That is, apparently if superluminal travel through some
mechanism similar to that discussed in MA could actually be
realized, it would imply that the laws of physics include a
principle of consistency, as discussed by Friedman et al. ͓7͔,
which constrains the initial conditions on spacelike surfaces
at times subsequent to the creation of closed timelike curves,
so as to ensure in some way that no contradiction arises; for
example, the initial conditions might guarantee the failure of
the mechanism by which the previous arrival of news of the
spaceship’s departure prevents its later departure from occur-
ring. While not logically inconsistent, such theories appear to
enforce correlations which are certainly counterintuitive.

So, it seems that if these "warp drives" are at all possible and if you can freely use them to travel between arbitrary points then you *can* use them to create real paradoxes just like any other FTL method and so this relies on contrived "consistency maintaining" methods existing in the universe, just like any other FTL method. Am I missing something?
 
  • #39
cuberoot said:
I think I found the answer to my question in the paper "Warp drive and causality" by "Allen E. Everett": http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1996PhRvD..53.7365E (http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences...tt - Warp drive and causality - prd950914.pdf)



So, it seems that if these "warp drives" are at all possible and if you can freely use them to travel between arbitrary points then you *can* use them to create real paradoxes just like any other FTL method and so this relies on contrived "consistency maintaining" methods existing in the universe, just like any other FTL method. Am I missing something?

Somebody out there must be 'checking' every potential FTL machine as it operates. The logic behind this sort of thing is very difficult to get to grips with. Perhaps future, real warp experiments will resolve it.
 
  • #40
cuberoot said:
Am I missing something?

No, you are right. As any other FTL travel warp drives would violate causality. But I never understood how they should exceed the speed of light. A warp bubble is a special kind of gravitational wave and therefore should propagate with c at the most. Exceeding the speed of light might be possible by forcing the formation of the warp bubble from outside but not from the ship inside.
 
  • #41
waitwaitwait... wouldn't there be all sorts of spacedust, stars, planets, and even galixies to account when using this thing? I mean, seriously, even if we were able to get this thing to work, how do we know that we won't run into half the milky way on the way out? *idea slot* if the bubble were to protect us somehow, wouldn't it be like the bug-on-the-windshield effect with all the bugs going 1+ times the speed of light when we got out of the bubble? *end idea slot*
-αether "Science fiction is there to become science fact"
-my dad
 
  • #42
K^2 said:
the principle of what we call a Warp Drive is absolutely solid.

In terms of theory, yes; it's a perfectly valid solution to the Einstein Field Equation.

In practical terms, not so much, since it requires exotic matter (and large quantities of it) to work. Nobody has ever observed exotic matter, and there are good reasons to think that it's impossible to make it.
 
  • #43
DrStupid said:
I never understood how they should exceed the speed of light.

They don't, in the only sense that matters in relativity: nothing actually moves outside the local light cones. For example, if a warp drive ship emitted a beam of light that traveled through the warp bubble, the beam of light would reach the ship's destination before the ship itself did.

The warp drive changes the geometry of spacetime so that a timelike path exists joining events that you would ordinarily think could only be joined by spacelike paths. So, for example, it could change the geometry of spacetime between Earth and Alpha Centauri so that a timelike path existed between them that was only a few months long (in terms of proper time), instead of more than 4.3 years long. But there would still be other spacelike paths, not passing through the warp bubble, that would join the same two events that were joined by a timelike path that did pass through the warp bubble.
 
  • #44
PeterDonis said:
For example, if a warp drive ship emitted a beam of light that traveled through the warp bubble, the beam of light would reach the ship's destination before the ship itself did.

I'm not talking about something traveling within or outside the warp bubble but about the bubble itself. How can it propagate faster than light?

PeterDonis said:
So, for example, it could change the geometry of spacetime between Earth and Alpha Centauri so that a timelike path existed between them that was only a few months long (in terms of proper time), instead of more than 4.3 years long.

I have no problem with such a timelike path if the geometry of spacetime between Earth and Alpha Centauri has already been changed. But I do not see how traveling from Earth to Alpha Centauri within a few months should be possible if we start with an unchanged spacetime. We would need to tell the spacetime that it has to change its geometry. Within the still unchanged spacetime this information travels with the speed of light only. That means changing the spacetime would take at least 4.3 years. With this principle it would be possible to build something like stargates or a hyperspace bypass but no superluminal space ships like Enterprise. Star Trek comes up with tachyons to solve that problem but how should it be possible in real world?
 
  • #45
DrStupid said:
I'm not talking about something traveling within or outside the warp bubble but about the bubble itself. How can it propagate faster than light?

The bubble doesn't propagate; it's part of the geometry of spacetime, and the geometry of spacetime doesn't propagate, it just is.

DrStupid said:
I do not see how traveling from Earth to Alpha Centauri within a few months should be possible if we start with an unchanged spacetime.

Spacetime doesn't "change"; it just is.

DrStupid said:
We would need to tell the spacetime that it has to change its geometry. Within the still unchanged spacetime this information travels with the speed of light only.

There is no such thing as "the still unchanged spacetime". The spacetime geometry just is; it's a 4-dimensional geometry. In the case of the Alcubierre solution, this 4-dimensional geometry happens to have a region in it where the light cones and timelike curves are very different from what we're used to, because of the presence of exotic matter. (Or multiple such regions, if there are multiple warp drives in the universe.)

Given this 4-dimensional geometry, the rule you are alluding to, that the geometry at any particular event is completely determined by the geometry and stress-energy in the past light cone of that event, is still valid. But the configuration of the past light cones of events becomes highly unusual when those past light cones include any portion of the warp bubble. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any good visualization that gets across how this works; but mathematically, it's clear: the Alcubierre solution is a valid solution of the Einstein Field Equation (with exotic matter), and any valid solution of the EFE has the property I just described (this is a mathematical theorem).
 
  • #46
PeterDonis said:
The bubble doesn't propagate; it's part of the geometry of spacetime, and the geometry of spacetime doesn't propagate, it just is.

Let's start with a ship in an almost flat space time. What happens, when the ship starts its warp engine?
 
  • #47
DrStupid said:
Let's start with a ship in an almost flat space time. What happens, when the ship starts its warp engine?

The fact that the ship has a warp engine and starts it is inconsistent with the premise that spacetime is almost flat. Spacetime doesn't "change" when the warp engine starts; the 4-d spacetime that describes this scenario already contains all the information about the warp drive, when it starts and stops, and what the light cones and timelike paths look like given the presence of the warp drive (which requires that spacetime is not flat--there must be a high concentration of exotic matter in portions of it, which make it highly non-flat).

This is one of those scenarios that you simply can't think about as "space" changing with "time"; you have to think about it as a 4-d solution right from the start. At least, that's the only way I know of to make sense of it without leading to questions like the ones you're asking, which seem like they ought to be meaningful but actually aren't, because of the highly counterintuitive nature of this spacetime. It's a more intense version of the confusion people get into when they ask how the universe can be "expanding faster than light".
 
  • #48
PeterDonis said:
Spacetime doesn't "change" when the warp engine starts;

Than let's take another step back. Does the spacetime change when the ship is build?

PeterDonis said:
the 4-d spacetime that describes this scenario already contains all the information about the warp drive, when it starts and stops, and what the light cones and timelike paths look like given the presence of the warp drive

That would mean it can't be controlled. I am talking about the usual scenario in science fiction. Captain Kirk choose a destination, Scotty presses some buttons and the ship starts traveling faster than light. I still do not see how this is possible and if I understand you correctly it actually is impossible.
 
  • #49
DrStupid said:
Does the spacetime change when the ship is build?

No. Again, spacetime just is--it's a 4-dimensional geometry that already includes all the things that have happened and will happen in a given scenario.

DrStupid said:
That would mean it can't be controlled.

No, it wouldn't. If the warp drive is controlled, then the 4-dimensional spacetime geometry already includes all the information about how it is controlled--which amounts to information about which regions of spacetime are affected by the presence of the warp drive. If the operator turns the drive on, then the event at which the drive turns on will be part of the boundary of a region of spacetime which is affected. If the operator turns the drive off, then the event at which the drive turns off will also be part of the boundary of a region of spacetime which is affected.

DrStupid said:
Captain Kirk choose a destination, Scotty presses some buttons and the ship starts traveling faster than light. I still do not see how this is possible and if I understand you correctly it actually is impossible.

I'm not sure you understand correctly. Suppose the Enterprise is on Earth, and Kirk tells Scotty to get the ship to Alpha Centauri in warp drive. Scotty presses the button, and the ship takes off.

Suppose clocks on Earth and Alpha Centauri were synchronized at some time in the past (we assume they are at rest relative to each other), while the Enterprise was far away. Assume also (which I'm not sure is actually a completely valid assumption, but I think it's a good enough approximation) that when the Enterprise's warp drive is turned off, it doesn't affect how clocks and rulers behave in its vicinity. And suppose that the gravity of Earth and Alpha Centauri (and all other objects) is negligible for purposes of this problem (so the only possible source of spacetime curvature is the warp drive).

Then there will be a region of spacetime to the past of the warp drive starting which is flat; this region will be bounded by a surface of simultaneity in the mutual rest frame of Earth and Alpha Centauri, which we will call the surface ##t = 0##. An instant after ##t = 0##, according to Earth clocks, the warp drive turns on. We assume that the ship's clock also reads ##t = 0## an instant before the drive turns on. At some later time ##t = T## by the ship's clock, the ship is in the vicinity of Alpha Centauri and the drive turns off. We assume that, because of the warp drive, ##T## is much less than 4.3 years.

Now, what will clocks on Alpha Centauri read when the Enterprise arrives? According to the Alcubierre solution, they will read ##T## (at least approximately; IIRC the Alcubierre solution is actually a family of solutions that give somewhat different answers to this question, but all of them are much less than 4.3 years, so we can just use ##T## as a representative value). This is the sense in which the Enterprise has traveled "faster than light". But spacetime in the region between the event of the ship leaving Earth and the event of it arriving on Alpha Centauri is highly curved, in a way that makes the Enterprise's worldline timelike everywhere, so that it never travels "faster than light" in a local sense; it will never outrun a light beam that starts out co-located with it.
 
  • #50
PeterDonis said:
No. Again, spacetime just is--it's a 4-dimensional geometry that already includes all the things that have happened and will happen in a given scenario.

Does that mean you assume future to be predefined?

PeterDonis said:
Then there will be a region of spacetime to the past of the warp drive starting which is flat

OK, it seems I wasn't precise enough. It's not spacetime that changes but the geometry of different regions of spacetime differ from each other.

PeterDonis said:
But spacetime in the region between the event of the ship leaving Earth and the event of it arriving on Alpha Centauri is highly curved

That means we have a region of spacetime between Earth and Alpha Centauri and t<0 with flat spacetime. Another region of spacetime between Earth and Alpha Centauri and 0<t<T is highly curved. That's what I mean with the change of spacetime in my postings above. My problem is: Why does the region of spacetime at Alpha Centauri change (from the view of a local observer) from flat to highly curved within t<=T<4.3 years? In my opinion it can't be caused by Kirks decision to travel to Alpha Centauri because this information would take at least 4.3 years to reach Alpha Centauri.
 
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