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Suggestions that god exists

by brushman
Tags: exists, suggestions
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DaveC426913
#55
Jun28-10, 02:53 PM
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Quote Quote by pftest View Post
a single conscious entity falsifies the claim that the universe does not need it.
No it doesn't. It got along for 9.2 billion years without needing us.

The fact that we came along doesn't mean the universe needs us, any more than the fact that Mars captured two stray asteroids (thus changing the universe) means the universe needs Mars.
GeorgCantor
#56
Jun28-10, 02:56 PM
P: 419
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
So, what we are left with is that God is still redundant. It solves nothing.

...except the essence of everything -- 'Existence'.



Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
- nothing suggests a conscious influence in the creation of the universe

That's the atheist viewpoint. There are others.





Quote Quote by DaveC426913
No it doesn't. It got along for 9.2 billion years without needing us.

The fact that we came along doesn't mean the universe needs us, any more than the fact that Mars captured two stray asteroids (thus changing the universe) means the universe needs Mars.

"Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous" - AE
xxChrisxx
#57
Jun28-10, 03:04 PM
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This thread is now about kittens.
stevenb
#58
Jun28-10, 03:05 PM
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Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
It is not my statement. pftest quoted it from earlier. All I'm doing is pointing that his argument does not falsify anything.
Sorry, I got confused. I edited the post to make it clear that you are not saying that.

I'll leave the post as a general statement about this type of viewpoint that some people have.
DaveC426913
#59
Jun28-10, 03:07 PM
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Quote Quote by GeorgCantor View Post
...except the essence of everything -- 'Existence'.
You're missing what I'm saying. Please read post 48.

We can't comprehend God any more than we can comprehend some as-yet-undiscovered all-encompassing equation that explains all existence. An equation (albeit a fabulously-advanced one, well beyond our current understanding) could explain all existence too.

Quote Quote by GeorgCantor View Post
That's the atheist viewpoint. There are others.
Again, not my claim. You've jumped in a little late and are taking these comments out of context. Please read pftest's post 50.
Evo
#60
Jun28-10, 03:10 PM
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Quote Quote by xxChrisxx View Post


This thread is now about kittens.
I'll second that motion!
GeorgCantor
#61
Jun28-10, 03:10 PM
P: 419
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
You're missing what I'm saying. Please read post 48.

We can't comprehend God any more than we can comprehend some as-yet-undiscovered all-encompassing equation that explains all existence. An equation (albeit a fabulously-advanced one, well beyond our current understanding) could explain all existence too.

This is a religious belief. What makes you think an advanced equation will ever be able to explain existence? Is that equation really SO powerful that it demands its own coming into existence?




Again, not my claim. You've jumped in a little late and are taking these comments out of context. Read pftest's posts starting a few back.

Sorry. And sorry for being late.
pftest
#62
Jun28-10, 03:10 PM
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Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
No it doesn't. It got along for 9.2 billion years without needing us.
If by "us" you mean conscious influences, then we dont know if it needed them back then. But our current universe does need them. It establishes the principle that there is nothing unnatural about conscious influences acting on the fundamental physical ingredients and the laws of physics.

The fact that we came along doesn't mean the universe needs us, any more than the fact that Mars captured two stray asteroids (thus changing the universe) means the universe needs Mars.
Is the universe the same without mars? No, so the universe needs mars to be the way it is. Put differently: mars is part of the universe.
DaveC426913
#63
Jun28-10, 03:12 PM
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Quote Quote by GeorgCantor View Post
This is a religious belief. What makes you think an advanced equation will ever be able to explain existence? Is that equation really SO powerful that it demands its own coming into existence?
The point is, it could. Those questions you just asked apply equally well to God as they could to this (hypothetical) equation.

The point being: claiming "God did it" gets us no further than "this equation defines it".

Thus, Occams' Razor: no need to multiply entities unnecessarily.



Now... kittens!
Evo
#64
Jun28-10, 03:14 PM
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Quote Quote by pftest View Post
If by "us" you mean conscious influences, then we dont know if it needed them back then. But our current universe does need them.
I'm afraid you'll have to post valid scientific data that backs up a statement like that.

Is the universe the same without mars? No, so the universe needs mars to be the way it is. Put differently: mars is part of the universe.
You do realize that the universe is in constant change? I have no idea where your line of thinking is coming from.
stevenb
#65
Jun28-10, 03:14 PM
P: 697
Quote Quote by xxChrisxx View Post


This thread is now about kittens.
Oh boy, now you brought the origin of species into the discussion. Now there will be a raging debate on how both God and natural selection are capable of producing something very cute and cuddly. I'm going to get a head start and run for cover now.
DaveC426913
#66
Jun28-10, 03:15 PM
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Quote Quote by pftest View Post
Is the universe the same without mars? No, so the universe needs mars to be the way it is. Put differently: mars is part of the universe.
This is simply word-play.

"The universe needs every molecule in it to be the place it is because otherwise it would not be the universe."

It yields us nothing.

Except kittens.
GeorgCantor
#67
Jun28-10, 03:27 PM
P: 419
'everything is so obvious, God exists!'

vs

'everything is so obvious, God doesn't exist!'.
HeLiXe
#68
Jun28-10, 03:27 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
Like when they used to believe that demons and evil spirits caused illness.
They don't?!
HeLiXe
#69
Jun28-10, 03:28 PM
P: 412
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
It yields us nothing.

Except kittens.
All hail the universe!
GeorgCantor
#70
Jun28-10, 03:28 PM
P: 419
Quote Quote by HeLiXe View Post
They don't?!

Nah, that was the Satan.
DaveC426913
#71
Jun28-10, 03:31 PM
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Quote Quote by GeorgCantor View Post
Nah, that was the Satan.
That's what Medieval parents used to say to their teenaged kids:

"What's wrong with you?? Are you on the Satan?"
HeLiXe
#72
Jun28-10, 03:33 PM
P: 412
you guys are killing me!.....*thinks* If you guys are killing me does that mean I'm on the satan?


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