Register to reply

Maple seed Personal Transport

by Miey7963
Tags: maple, personal, seed, transport
Share this thread:
Miey7963
#1
Sep19-10, 06:43 PM
P: 4
Hello
i just joined this forum because i had an idea that i think, if it hasnt already been thought of would be a unique mode of transport over short distances, its based on the maple seed, basically it would be a single seat mono blade helicopter, the actual blade would be above the pilot, who would be sat on a seat with footrests extending down and handles extending outwards from the central pole, i havent done any drawings yet, this is basically just the idea based on what ive seen a maple seed do, i am unsure as to what span the blade would need to be in order to support the weight of a person, also unsure of how it could be made to turn, altho i suspect that something as simple as leaning as you would in a hang glider would possibly do it, please understand that i am basically not an engineer, i have ideas but thats why i have brought this to the attention of the forum, would very much like some feedback on this, unless its already been thought of.
i will run up some rough designs over the next few days, but it would be helpful to know what you guys with more knowledge than i have think.
Michael
Phys.Org News Partner Science news on Phys.org
Hoverbike drone project for air transport takes off
Earlier Stone Age artifacts found in Northern Cape of South Africa
Study reveals new characteristics of complex oxide surfaces
russ_watters
#2
Sep19-10, 08:33 PM
Mentor
P: 22,234
Welcome to PF.

How would you avoid making the occupant dizzy?
boneh3ad
#3
Sep19-10, 09:02 PM
PF Gold
boneh3ad's Avatar
P: 1,487
Quote Quote by russ_watters
How would you avoid making the occupant dizzy?
That was the first thing that came to my mind as well.

Danger
#4
Sep19-10, 09:14 PM
PF Gold
Danger's Avatar
P: 8,964
Maple seed Personal Transport

Quote Quote by russ_watters View Post
Welcome to PF.

How would you avoid making the occupant dizzy?
Good point, but perhaps the least of his worries. I assume that something equivalent to a tail rotor would be utilized.
A maple seed behaves pretty much like an unguided autogyro or parachute. Gravity is its driving force, and it's always a one-way trip. It's like the weed equivalent of a flying squirrel.
JaredJames
#5
Sep19-10, 09:20 PM
P: 3,387
I think this is the sort of thing you're thinking of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd99ziWFF7Q

More of a personal helicopter though. The pilot tilts the rotor by a handle bar to control the craft.
Miey7963
#6
Sep20-10, 06:38 AM
P: 4
hello Gentlemen and thankyou for taking the time to read and comment, to answer your questions i have run off some very basic drawings that i hope will answer these question, i will be designing a basic model in 3D and animating it so that it becomes clearer how i envision this working, the point about it being a downward only trip i think could be addressed with some sort of powered engine that would create more lift, but as i said i am no engineer.

http://mikey7963.deviantart.com/
boneh3ad
#7
Sep20-10, 07:03 AM
PF Gold
boneh3ad's Avatar
P: 1,487
You have no way to counteract the torque generated by the rotor. As is, when the blade spins one way, the chair will spin the other direction at a rate that will match the torque of the blade. That is why modern helicopters have a tail rotor.
Miey7963
#8
Sep20-10, 07:19 AM
P: 4
so if i added a rotor blade behind the pilot that would solve that problem, correct, i'm also wondering, if its at all possible to have the main blade act as some sort of generator, not sure how this works, but if the blade spinning could be made to generate some form of power, that could then be used to power a secondary rotor could it not?
JaredJames
#9
Sep20-10, 09:51 AM
P: 3,387
Quote Quote by boneh3ad View Post
You have no way to counteract the torque generated by the rotor. As is, when the blade spins one way, the chair will spin the other direction at a rate that will match the torque of the blade. That is why modern helicopters have a tail rotor.
I must point to the video I posted. Did anyone watch it?

It is a personal flying machine (without tail rotor). Using counteracting rotor blades to remove torque issues.

Your mono blade design wouldn't be very effective - hence helicopters having a minimum of two.

Even with four engines and counteracting rotors (two blades per rotor assembly), the craft in the video isn't very powerful.

The design of your 'maple seed' craft is virtually identical to the one in the video, minus the mono blade design.

Quote Quote by Miey7963 View Post
so if i added a rotor blade behind the pilot that would solve that problem, correct, i'm also wondering, if its at all possible to have the main blade act as some sort of generator, not sure how this works, but if the blade spinning could be made to generate some form of power, that could then be used to power a secondary rotor could it not?
The rotor would solve torque issues.

The main blade acting as a generator would simply draw power from it, reducing the efficiency of the craft (engine turning main rotor which is then turning tail rotor). You would be better off using the engine to drive both from the start.
boneh3ad
#10
Sep20-10, 10:40 AM
PF Gold
boneh3ad's Avatar
P: 1,487
Quote Quote by jarednjames
It is a personal flying machine (without tail rotor). Using counteracting rotor blades to remove torque issues.
I have seen those before. They are certainly possible, but very complicated. The Soviets had a gunship that operated that way if I remember right but it didn't get very popular because it was complicated.

Quote Quote by jarednjames
Your mono blade design wouldn't be very effective - hence helicopters having a minimum of two.
Not to mention it would likely have stability issues and efficiency issues. Those are other reasons for multiple blades.

Any reason why you would like to make a single-blade rotor instead of just using multiple blades like most helicopters?
JaredJames
#11
Sep20-10, 11:01 AM
P: 3,387
Quote Quote by boneh3ad View Post
I have seen those before. They are certainly possible, but very complicated. The Soviets had a gunship that operated that way if I remember right but it didn't get very popular because it was complicated.
I've never really looked at counter rotating prop systems in detail, but there are a few helicopters that use it and there are also a lot of toy rc models which utilise it. (Not saying that means it's simple).

Not to mention it would likely have stability issues and efficiency issues. Those are other reasons for multiple blades.
That's what I was going for.

Any reason why you would like to make a single-blade rotor instead of just using multiple blades like most helicopters?
I can't answer this for the OP, but my take on it would be:
If you look at the seeds falling, they are fairly stable and consistent in their descent. The rotor is balanced by the weight of the seed which provides stability.

If you were to try and force rotation via an engine and add controls, you would lose that stability. Controlling the craft would be a difficult task to achieve if everything isn't perfectly balanced.
Miey7963
#12
Sep20-10, 12:55 PM
P: 4
some very interesting points , i was thinking about the torque issue, and what keeps coming into my mind is this, the torque problem that needs the counter rotation to create stability, isnt that due to the rotor blades being physically attached to the body of the craft, this design doesnt have the mono blade anchored to the central column, its free floating in a magnetic field, im probably mistaken but if the blade has no physical connection to the body of the craft wouldnt that eliminate the torque problem.
the reason i have gone for the single blade option rather than a dual bladed option is because its nature, and lets face it nature does produce some very efficient designs, what is concerning me is the potential span of the monoblade, its going to have to support the weight of a person, which makes me wonder how big this would have to be.
soon as i can get the design to a workable quality i am going to try and get a small prototype made so that weight tests can be done, i think once these have been done and the results are there it will be easier to see where this is heading, even if it cant be made into an actual transport system it could be used as a descent system, like a parachute, but for now , thankyou gents for all your input
gutemine
#13
Sep20-10, 01:21 PM
P: 59
Nature made these seeds for small things which don't care if they are rotated :-)

But for the N-SAT to be blowed up in the Space Hose that I suggested maybe this could be an interesting alternative to the parachute and balloon I planned to use - it generates quite a lot of lift probably sufficient to keep the needed 10-20grams floating in the air moving upwards.

But I'm not sure if it would work at all airspeeds, because propellers normally are optimzed for a speciffic one, no matter if single or dual blade.

gutemine
Cyrus
#14
Sep20-10, 01:22 PM
Cyrus's Avatar
P: 4,780
Do a google search on the word "Samara" as opposed to maple seed. The torque will still be an issue because of Newtons 3rd law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, magnetic field or not. The way around it is to have a reaction drive system. My friend is finishing his PhD on Maple seed UAVs. I helped him do some drop tests from an RC airplane.

http://www.avl.umd.edu/projects/proj...ic-samara.html
JaredJames
#15
Sep20-10, 01:32 PM
P: 3,387
Quote Quote by Miey7963 View Post
some very interesting points , i was thinking about the torque issue, and what keeps coming into my mind is this, the torque problem that needs the counter rotation to create stability, isnt that due to the rotor blades being physically attached to the body of the craft, this design doesnt have the mono blade anchored to the central column, its free floating in a magnetic field, im probably mistaken but if the blade has no physical connection to the body of the craft wouldnt that eliminate the torque problem.
See Cyrus answer above.

the reason i have gone for the single blade option rather than a dual bladed option is because its nature, and lets face it nature does produce some very efficient designs, what is concerning me is the potential span of the monoblade, its going to have to support the weight of a person, which makes me wonder how big this would have to be.
The mono blade would have to produce enough lift to allow the vehicle to ascend (or simply descend in a controlled manner), remember, the maple seeds do not have a load to lift (nature has used the seed which is the load as a natural counterbalance). You would need such a counterbalance, plus additional blade span to support a load.

soon as i can get the design to a workable quality i am going to try and get a small prototype made so that weight tests can be done, i think once these have been done and the results are there it will be easier to see where this is heading, even if it cant be made into an actual transport system it could be used as a descent system, like a parachute, but for now , thankyou gents for all your input
Google "Monoblade Helicopter", there are plenty of model rc toys out there that employ this technique, but it's only on a small scale. And they don't really have full control.

It would be heavier, more expensive, more complex and more difficult to deploy than a parachute. I don't see it being a viable replacement. Perhaps as a bit of fun maybe, but not going to be in the hands of the SAS anytime soon.
boneh3ad
#16
Sep20-10, 08:14 PM
PF Gold
boneh3ad's Avatar
P: 1,487
Quote Quote by Miey7963
the reason i have gone for the single blade option rather than a dual bladed option is because its nature, and lets face it nature does produce some very efficient designs, what is concerning me is the potential span of the monoblade, its going to have to support the weight of a person, which makes me wonder how big this would have to be.
Maple seeds also don't have an inner ear or a the capacity to vomit from rotation or the capacity to pass out from g-force. If you watch a maple samara fall, you can see that the seed itself (playing the part of the person in your craft) isn't stationary. When they spin, the center of mass is stationary, and that is not where the seed is. To counteract that, you would need a counterweight in your design so that the center of mass is along that center axis. That still doesn't solve the torque issue though.

Quote Quote by jarednjames
I can't answer this for the OP
I can see how my post was confusing. I wasn't directing that question at you. I merely quoted you to expand on your thoughts. My mistake.
Dr Lots-o'watts
#17
Sep20-10, 08:41 PM
P: 674
By adding a second blade to a mono-blade helicopter, you just might generate twice the lift for nearly the same power output.
Cyrus
#18
Sep20-10, 08:45 PM
Cyrus's Avatar
P: 4,780
Quote Quote by Dr Lots-o'watts View Post
By adding a second blade to a mono-blade helicopter, you just might generate twice the lift for nearly the same power output.
Might as well just make a helicopter then, eh? LOL.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Maple seed (samara) Introductory Physics Homework 6
Srand() seed microsecs? Programming & Computer Science 4
The Winging Seed General Physics 3
Personal transport General Engineering 2
My Seed Theory Cosmology 2