Help with Early Welsh & Middle English


by Evo
Tags: early, english, middle, welsh
Evo
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#1
Jun2-11, 01:39 PM
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I'm trying to learn Mid Welsh because I am running into it more and more.

I've just started reading "An introduction to early Welsh". http://www.archive.org/stream/introd...age/4/mode/2up

I was wondering if anyone knew of other books that might be better. I don't need to speak it, just read it.

I've also been improving on my Middle English, but the online dictionaries I've found are not complete. And just between different authors you almost need, at times, an author to author dictionary.

Any suggestions?
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arildno
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Jun2-11, 01:58 PM
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Hmm..
What about William Owen's 2-volume dictionary from 1803?
Not sure it's about early Welsh, though..
http://books.google.com/books?q=edit...hl=no&as_brr=1
Evo
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Jun2-11, 03:32 PM
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Quote Quote by arildno View Post
Hmm..
What about William Owen's 2-volume dictionary from 1803?
Not sure it's about early Welsh, though..
http://books.google.com/books?q=edit...hl=no&as_brr=1
Thank you Arildno! I also checked the Google English and the book is not in the same order and the English lacks the table of contents and the alphabet, etc... or it's been placed somewhere else within the book, so your version is much better.

arildno
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Jun2-11, 03:42 PM
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Help with Early Welsh & Middle English


It seems that William Owen was bent upon "proving" the relatedness of Welsh to the human "mother tongue".
Thus, he is guilty of a number of etymological, grammatical and orthographical errors.
However, according to this biography, the book was the staple work of the 19th century, even after his ideological flaws had been exposed.
So, it must have SOME value, I think.
http://wbo.llgc.org.uk/en/s-PUGH-OWE-1759.html
Evo
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Jun2-11, 05:23 PM
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I started reading The Mabinogian the other day.

I just found this http://www.mit.edu/people/dfm/canol/index.html
arildno
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Jun2-11, 05:26 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
I started reading The Mabinogian the other day.

I just found this http://www.mit.edu/people/dfm/canol/index.html
I read it once in an English translation.
It had a delightfully whimsical and dreamy charm..
wasteofo2
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#7
Jun4-11, 01:08 PM
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I don't know anything about those languages, but these communities of language learners might be able to help you:

http://forum.wordreference.com/
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/default.asp

Good luck
JaredJames
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Jun4-11, 01:20 PM
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Welsh? As in from Wales? UK, Wales?

Do people still speak it in real life?
JaredJames
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Jun4-11, 01:26 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
I started reading The Mabinogian the other day.

I just found this http://www.mit.edu/people/dfm/canol/index.html
With respect, you want to learn Welsh and to do so you go to the University of Texas?

Not entirely sure what all this "early" and "middle" Welsh is about, but there are plenty of learning resources out there: http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwels...ecourses.shtml
Evo
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Jun4-11, 01:36 PM
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I want to learn Welsh that was spoken around the 12th to 14th century.
JaredJames
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Jun4-11, 01:37 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
I want to learn Welsh that was spoken around the 12th to 14th century.
21st century Welsh is dead, I'm curious why you'd want to learn such a thing?
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Jun4-11, 02:04 PM
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Quote Quote by JaredJames View Post
21st century Welsh is dead, I'm curious why you'd want to learn such a thing?
I'm reading a couple of books which keep referencing tales written in mid-Welsh, and the authors will say it's hard to determine accuracy because this person or this place was called by (long list of weird names) and it's not clear if they are the same person or place. So I am going backwards to read the books that the newer books are basing information on, and trying to get a clearer understanding of the language, since the old words keep popping up.

Latin is dead too, but it's still good to be able to read it. Same with Middle & Old English.

Don't tell me you don't read Welsh.

Mae Gramadeg Cymraeg Canol yn gyfrol anhepgor i fyfyrwyr sydd yn astudio llenyddiaeth Gymraeg yr Oesoedd Canol. Yn y llyfr hwn, ceir braslun o ramadeg Cymraeg y cyfnod canol, sef o'r ddeuddegfed hyd at y bedwaredd ganrif ar ddeg. Fe'i seiliwyd ar weithiau'r Cynfeirdd a'r Gogynfeirdd, ac yn arbennig ar y gweithiau rhyddiaith, yn chwedlau, cyfreithiau, gweithiau hanesyddol a chrefyddol a berthyn i'n cyfnod hwnnw.
How did you people make this stuff up? Never hear that "less is more"?
JaredJames
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Jun4-11, 02:13 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
Latin is dead too, but it's still good to be able to read it. Same with Middle & Old English.
I wish I shared your enthusiasm, but having lived in a country where a dying language exists and is continuously pushed I cannot say I feel the same.

Latin crops up in lots of places, welsh only ever finds its way into things like road signs. All welsh road signs are twice as big to include the translation - go government spending!
Don't tell me you don't read Welsh.
I know a few words and phrases, but nothing substantial. Certainly not enough to be useful.

It's only the hardcore Welshies (our equivalent of America's south 'stereotype' - but North and West Wales) that keep using it (teachers excluded).
arildno
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Jun4-11, 02:16 PM
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Quote Quote by Evo View Post
I'm reading a couple of books which keep referencing tales written in mid-Welsh, and the authors will say it's hard to determine accuracy because this person or this place was called by (long list of weird names) and it's not clear if they are the same person or place. So I am going backwards to read the books that the newer books are basing information on, and trying to get a clearer understanding of the language, since the old words keep popping up.

Latin is dead too, but it's still good to be able to read it. Same with Middle & Old English.

Don't tell me you don't read Welsh.
Besides, it is possibly still a (very) few adult monoglots around, as evidenced in this message board comment from 2008:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8120438AA0B7c3
JaredJames
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Jun4-11, 02:20 PM
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Quote Quote by arildno View Post
Besides, it is possibly still a (very) few adult monoglots around, as evidenced in this message board comment from 2008:
You do find them in the extreme West and North of Wales. But they are rare.

Modern life just doesn't lend itself to only speaking Welsh.
Evo
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#16
Jun4-11, 02:27 PM
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I don't intend to be able to speak it, just enough to recognize what a word means. I am looking fo some sources of help.
arildno
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Jun4-11, 02:31 PM
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Quote Quote by JaredJames View Post
You do find them in the extreme West and North of Wales. But they are rare.

Modern life just doesn't lend itself to only speaking Welsh.
And possibly, in..Patagonia?
JaredJames
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#18
Jun4-11, 02:32 PM
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I skimmed through your MIT link and the majority of words are identical to modern Welsh. There are a few which are slightly different, but they are still recognisable.

I'd recommend you check out modern Welsh resources as a start to familiarise yourself with the language and that will allow you to at least get a ball park idea of words you find and know where to go from there.


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