Spaceships and Science fiction

Ryan_m_b

I'm a fan of the lost fleet series but I disagree with this; the combat is far better thought out than soft science fiction however it still relies on soft-SF handwavium like inertial negation, impossibly powerful propulsion, force fields and a lot of the explanations for limitations don't really stack up like ships not being able to engage at closing speeds of more than 0.2c because relativistic distortion will mess with the sensors.

IMO the Dread Empire Fall trilogy dealt with it better, it still involves some handwavium (copious amounts of antimatter) but the ships can only accelerate at the limit that their occupants can safely handle and the tactics of formations in 3d are very clever. For example; ships conventionally remain close to maximise their close-in defence against missiles but because of this they are in danger of catastrophe once one ship gets hit and it's antimatter is released. To combat this various patterns are formed that maximise defence but allow the ships to move around erratically.

In fact those two series are very interesting in how similar yet how different they are.

Travis_King

I forgot about the forcefields...
Dread Empire Fall, huh? I'll have to take a look. I really enjoyed the "naval" formations in the LF series, I thought Campbell did a great job of painting the picture in 3D and allowing you to visualize from/to where the attacks were coming and going.

There's got to be some handwaving haha, in real life I imagine it would pretty much just be both ships blowing each other up once they found their location and trajectory. I suppose some evasive maneuvers could be used, but really I think it would be pretty anticlimactic.

Ryan_m_b

I'll give Campbell his credit, he doesn't make the mistake of trying to explain his handwavium. Ships have forcefields, they accelerate to significant fractions of c in no time at all and that's that.
It has it's flaws but it's worth a look. Especially to compare to LF.
It really relies on what technology is available and what the military goal is. Realistically however if it happens in the future it's not going to be anything resembling dog fights or naval fleets.

ImaLooser

"The Golden Age of science fiction is fourteen."

Ryan_m_b

Lol, I think as I've aged I lean more towards hard SF with the occasional spattering of soft. "Big ships go bang with lasers through hyperspace" gets tiresome after puberty.

SHISHKABOB

While I do agree that sci fi with big space ships with big lasers and explosions is often kind of shallow, I do know one example that contradicts it. It's a show called Legend of the Galactic Heroes, and it's got quite a few big space battles between huge fleets of space ships that fly around like boats, etc.

but the rest of the show is waaaaaay deeper than that. It's definitely not meant for kids.

The space part of it is honestly used to make it more exciting and interesting. It's pretty much a "war in peace in space". In terms of number of characters and breadth of plot and setting.

Ryan_m_b

I might check it out don't get me wrong, sometimes all I want to do is read something so soft you could spread it on your toast in the morning. But generally I'm more of a 4/4.5 on Mohs scale

Borek

Even more off topic:

Electing a King? Not a problem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_elections_in_Poland

Ryan_m_b

Ah interesting. Though in keeping with the weirdness of lucas I'm guessing none of these royals had to abide by a two term constitution

SHISHKABOB

I don't have a lot of experience with the mohs scale, but after reading through the different levels I'd toss LoGH into like... somewhere around 2 or 3. The sci-fi is pretty darn soft. They don't ever bother explaining how the FTL travel works, it's just "yeah they get around". It's also not... terribly consistent, I suppose.

But that's just the science fiction aspect of it. What makes it a great show is the characters and the plot. Plenty of politics, discussions on stuff like authoritarianism vs. democracy, the role of the military in a democracy, the merits of authoritarianism/democracy. etc. To be quite honest, the science fiction is almost there just to "spice things up" and make it more interesting. It's just a show about two nations going to war, but transplanted into space.

I think my favorite theme of the show is summed up in a quote by one of the characters: "There are few wars between good and evil; most are between one good and another good."

I could probably count the "truly evil" characters on one hand, maybe two. They're all spread throughout the whole setting. In fact, one of the biggest jackasses of the show is one of the most powerful men in the democratic faction.

GTOM

Thank you for your suggestions. :)

Although i have to say i didnt really liked LoGH, but there were good parts I admit. :)
What i despised is Yang Wenlii... the empire attacks a patrol with an another patrol... send there our whole fleet yeah why not... Next time they attack with a BIG fleet, oh it is bound to be a decoy, the real attack, comes from the other direction.
Then the politicians : but Phezzan will not let it... and what did they think, what can a single planet do against a fleet of an empire, if the empire's leader dont respect the status quo?
But again i admit there were good thoughts in it. :)

New BSG i liked it at first :), but at the end of the third season... i hoped the Cylons will win...

On rocketpunk manifesto, we thought about, what can be the closest relative to the pop sci space fighter. (well, maybe its only me, i more like swarms of ships, than big battleships just keep shooting each other)
I think we worked out something : it would be a several hundred tons ship (mostly remote controlled), with nuclear thermo drives, most of its mass is the propellant (monatomic hydrogen). Capable to perform some tenth G acceleration in order to change its orbit, ascend to high orbit from low orbit, then return, or reverse.
Armed with laser jammers, cannons for self defence, (short range) missiles for attack.

It would be the descandent of present day littoral patrol and combat boats, mostly used to maintain peace and order (that is an important task in modern warfare, in Iraq, Afganistan)
In actual combat, unlike a simple missile, it is reusable (yes they will require the support fire of either bigger ships, or planetary defence to keep the mortality rate down) and more adapt in operating in orbital environment, where are cover, background clutter, possibly lots of debris, anti missile mines, satellites, aerial and ground targets.
(In a simple deep space combat, simple missiles are enough, and require less resources. )
The mothership would be the descandant of torpedo boat tenders, it is task is to regroup surface troops and orbital ships between colonies, invade, pacify, secure, aid them.
It can also serve a mobile base for your fleet.

Does that sound a bit plausible?

ImaLooser

I think space ships are old school. I don't see how you can take one to Jupiter, much less to another star.

I've got ideas but they are speculative so I ain't saying nuttin.

GTOM

I guess you watched StarGate. :) If you have other ideas, you can share me privately.

Ryan_m_b

Reading through all of that gives me a distinct reminder of reading accounts of how tacticians circa 1900 thought speculative air battles would be. I'm agreeing with ImaLooser on this point:
The fundamental concept that space craft can be analogised to naval ships automatically handicaps the discussion. The differences between space and the ocean are significant in spite of superficial similarity.

GTOM

"The fundamental concept that space craft can be analogised to naval ships "

I know there are several differences, but i find it hard to ignore certain analogies...
The word battlecruiser sounds better than big size rocket with patrol/attack duties. Frigate sounds better then middle sized patrol spacecraft.
Travel lengths, lots of people sharing the hull of a single vehicle, that travels through a hostile environment, also brings up theese analogies.

Should someone come up with entirely new terms?

Ryan_m_b

The problem is the imposition of similarities based on assumptions. For example: the idea that you would have "patrol ships" because patrolling would be a necessary job of military space craft. To have this discussion properly you have to first determine what situations military space craft would be necessary/desirable for as well as determining what technology will be available for them.

GTOM

Ok.

Well it is easier to answer certain questions in an SF operatic setting with the good old magical hyperspace jump drive.

But at first a not so far future scenario i have the following thoughts :

There would be space stations producing stuff requires zero-G, act as luxury hotels for rich people. There would be lunar colonies, mining HE-3 and other things. There would be much cheaper methods to reach orbit than today : induction catapults, laser assisted rockets, skyhooks lifted up by magsailed ships. There can be also orbital habitats for lunar executives who has to be relatively close, but dont want too much exposure to low-G.
There would be near Earth asteroid mines, orbital depots.

Earth still dont has a monolithic government, corporations also have the power of small (or not so small...) nations, there might be corporate warfare, terrorism and organised crime can be also significant.

An orbital fast attack craft (fighter) would have the following jobs : monitor surface, possibly drop kinetic bombs, force suspicious ships (they might smuggle guns or drugs, spies, crime lords, terrorists, or maybe they try to ram you in a 9/11 style) to change their course to your port, abandon resistance. Or maybe destroy them if necessary.
(Well some of theese things supposes that there wont be really strong long range lasers, and kinetics still have an important role.)
A corvette (attack/transport craft) could carry more kinetic bombs, or transport police, military commandos, detainees.

If things get nasty, you might need fast Earth-to-Moon ships, that can reinforce the local ones (frigates, destroyers). (The first two kind of rockets act between LEO and GEO or possibly they land on the surface.)
If things get really bad, you might even need the mothership, that would be a mobile spinning station, that can house lots of fighters, corvettes, marines, supplies.


Later if we could reach even farer, there can be big battleships and destroyers meant to take over particulary valuable asteroid mines, battlecruisers to attack or protect convoys.