The Dangers of White Supremacy Ideology in America

[NoahAfrican]

Let me state emphatically that none of my best friends are white. However, some of the nicest and “got your back people” are white people. In fact, most of the whites I meet are much friendlier towards me than the blacks I initially meet…and I understand the reason why this is true…its not genetics, its learned defensive conditioning.

What I would like to make clear is that in spite of the above truth, I have come to little faith in the white population. The reason being is that the test of true character only manifest during stress and duress. Thus, the niceties that I see in the white population, for far too many, simply reflects that everything much is going well for them and not the fact that they have learned to respect the black population that it shares the nation and world with. It is much better to be respected than liked or tolerated and the black population is not respected in America or the world.

I have participated in many forums where the majority membership is white. Ubiquitously, there is always a “white supremacy/black inferiorityy” proponent on these forums. They are the only one who bring up the issue of race directly. Others usually do it through code words. Anyway, the methodology of the white supremacist is to offer up truths, such as crime statistics like homicide, or welfare participation rates, or IQ scores, or out of wedlock births, all of which are truly factual. They then take these facts and try to infer or deduce a genetic predisposition as a cause of these racial discrepancies.

That’s not what bothers, me. These type racist have been spreading this propaganda for centuries, coming up with new rational and reasoning every few decades to coincide with the times and hook in new believers. What bothers me is that the majority of whites who read their propositions do not attempt to refute them. Even the white folks who I know are good people in their hearts can only manage to speak up and call them out as racist people. However, what seems to be most universal is that other whites cannot come up with a counter premise, inference and conclusion that contradicts these white supremacist theories.

The fact that most whites fail to offer a counter thesis implies that they are more in agreement than disagreement. There is lies the danger. When times are good in the nation and it is not experiencing depression like economic stress (which will inevitably occur again in this nation) then most whites are simply deflect or ignore this white supremacy rhetoric, because they believe that its root is negative emotions which they equate with racism. It is not as if the object to the rational conclusions of the white supremacist, rather, they simply have a problem with their motives…which they believe to be racism and most whites today try to distance themselves from racist.

When times become bad economically, one can be assured that many of those whites who could not offer a counter thesis to the white supremacist theories on blacks, will suddenly embrace those theories. They will start to conclude that the whites should have the available opportunities because blacks in general are inferior. They will come to resent any black person with good job and status, because they will automatically figure that there is a more qualifies white person who probably should have that job. Amerikkka, will then revert back to what it has known most of its history, which is that one group can lift itself up by putting another group down in a seesaw economic predicated upon discrimination and exploitation of one group to the benefit of another and resulting in an elevated rank and social status of one group over the other.

 

[Nereid]

I infer from your post that you live in the US, and your reference to 'America' is that country, not the whole continent of North America or the two American continents.

It seems that you are commenting on an aspect of US society today.

I am curious about a number of things; would you be so kind as to help me understand?
1) to what extent do you feel your commentary has relevance outside the US?
2) you use the terms 'black' and 'white' frequently - what do you mean by these?
3) you have posted in the Social Sciences section of PF, rather than the Politics and World Affairs. Why?

I see that you are relatively new to PF, so you may not realize that a considerable number of members do not live in the US, nor are they US citizens.

 

[Prometheus]

The fact that most whites fail to offer a counter thesis implies that they are more in agreement than disagreement.

I am not sure what your point is. However, I feel that you are asking to be disliked. People who call others racist lose my respect in a hurry. If you have something to say, say it.

If you think that I judge your opinion in any respect due to the fact that you are black and I am white, then you are deluding yourself. If you throw out this word racist, then I have nothing to say to you. Do you want to hold a conversation or not?

There are a number of racist people in the world. If you label people who have an opinion that you do not share racist, then you are foolish or desperate, in my opinion.

Please make your point and have us examine it on its merits, and do not attempt to throw in the word racist. You know, I certainly hope, that it does not apply in most cases. Using it is only asking to be shunned.

 

[Monique]

Why oh why is there the need to talk in black and white terms? NoahAfrican, you are supporting racism by talking in such terms and generalizing populations by skin color alone.

To know how rediculous it really is, go visit this website: http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/ A warning for people who judge on first glance (only look at the skin): look a little deeper and you'll see what the site really is about.

 

[Andre]

Hilarious link. Monique

Pondering about racism. Could it be a standard build in feature in the nature of creatures in general to stimulate biodiversity?

Just a comparison. I have in my fish tank several platys in two variatys or sub races. Uniform red ones and red ones with black fins and tails. Guess what. Maximum racism. The black tail males don't tolerate any all red female in their surroundings and tend to chase them around. So this would tend to prevent breeding, which could lead to enough differentiation to have different species in several generations.

This may also be one of the main reasons why the http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/hdy/journal/v80/n6/abs/6883470a.html in the African rift lakes have diversified so much in such a short time (Holocene) without geographic boundarys? Just intolerance of slight differences? Chiclids can be quite intolerant and racistic.

So if mankind looses its natural racism, that would be the end of human evolution?

 

[NoahAfrican]

Prometheus, I am not in need of your respect or affection. I am strong and confident and driven by self evaluation, self respect and love of myself. Personally, my evaluation of people is based on there effect, not intent. I can only discredit myself by implying that I know what their mental motivations are. However, I can observe and speak intelligently in regards the EFFECT of peoples words and actions. If these words or actions has the effect of elevating one race over the other, it is deemed racist, making the person who caused the effect racist. Ignorance is a leading cause of racism. Furthermore, opinions are not exempt from being racist in conclusions/effect. I disagree with any opinion that concludes that the major cause of the problems that black people face in this world is due to an inferior genetic predisposition relative to the races that are doing much better.

Oh yes Monique, your argument is tantamount to a women who has been raped being accused of “asking for it” by virtue of the physical form that God gave her and that she highlighted by wearing certain clothing. To suggest that a people, black people, who have spent over 3 centuries having there lives exploited and shaped, rationalized and legalized by our race, should not talk in terms of black and white is disingenuous. Again, the present is simply the creation of the past, which you agreed with I believe. Therefore, our, black people, present has been shaped by the racism of the past and the only way that we can explain this is via the terms of its creation….which are black and white.

The only way that society can do a proper accounting is to keep receipts of its transactions. The terms black and white are relevant because those were the social and economic accounts set up in the new world. The accounts and lives of millions of blacks were debited through slavery, discrimination, exploitation and colonization. This debit resulted in a credit to elite whites lives in the form of increased income and wealth. These elite whites, in turn, through trickle down economics, created opportunities for non elite whites, as the elites invested and spent their earning. Contemporaneously, the black population was kept from prospering equally from cash flow via discrimination against our race.

Now, incredulously, some people think that we should all of a sudden stop noting black and white. Well, the effect of that, at this juncture, will simply result in the ignoring of how current inequality between blacks and white occurred. Thus, this leaves the proponents of black racial inferiority offering up the only explanation of racial socioeconomic differences.

When a group of people are identified and targeted for oppression for centuries, by nations, peoples and laws, the only way to undue that damage is to target that same group of people for correction. If something was taken from a group of people, how can it be righteously given back if you stop noting who they were and who took it? Not that blacks should hold their breath in anticipation of getting back any thing from the groups and entities that took it. Rather, such knowledge helps black people refrain from internalizing a belief in their own inferiority, thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy. Perpetrated to the delight of white supremacist. Once the correction has been reconciled then, and only then, can one stop using the terms black and white.

Nearly everyone wants to receive the benefits inherited and accrued from the past, that others created. Benefits, such as nations, freedoms, technology, rights. However, few people want to deal with the liabilities from the past that have accrued to the present (often the cost of creating the assets in the past). The problem is that present is a package deal. You cannot separate the enjoyment of the assets from the responsibilities to the liabilities. Most people today selfishly only want the benefits and often try to discredit and condemn those who compel them to address the liabilities.

 

[Nereid]

Well Andre, the behaviour of homo sap. males seems to be quite different from that of your black-tailed fish - they certainly do lots of chasing, but 'away'? Evidence? Ask some Finns (or Italians) about the meaning of the phrase 'scandinavian expedition'!

 

[Monique]

Excellent post NoahAfrican.

Now, incredulously, some people think that we should all of a sudden stop noting black and white. Well, the effect of that, at this juncture, will simply result in the ignoring of how current inequality between blacks and white occurred. Thus, this leaves the proponents of black racial inferiority offering up the only explanation of racial socioeconomic differences.

I certainly never suggested to forget about what happened in the past. In your first post you seem to have stigmatized white people as supremists. I'm sure groups like that exist, but it certainly is not of this century to think like that.

 

[BlackVision]

If you label people who have an opinion that you do not share racist, then you are foolish or desperate, in my opinion.

I concurr with this and it seems that the only way NoahAfrican can handle someone that thinks different than him is to call that person a racist over and over again. As shown in the "homicide statistics by race & gender" thread. Anyone that doesn't believe exactly what he believes, that the difference in human behavior can solely be linked to environmental reasons, then to him you are a racist. By his definition, Monique would also be a racist. A person who seems to agree what several aspects that NoahAfrican has stated but is still willing to give genetic factors at least a consideration and that it's at least worth looking into.

Instead of calling everyone that disagrees with you a racist over and over, you might want to try arguing on merit instead.

 

[NoahAfrican]

What does it mean to say that it is not this century to think that way? How does the century prevent people from thinking “that” way? What is to prevent the return of people thinking that way if they do not currently? Is forward the only direction that racial progress can go? If most whites today cannot explain WHY that the vast majority of blacks on this planet are impoverished or why blacks commit a disproportionate share of crimes, or why black educational testing levels are below others…without using some genetic theories of traits that make us perform below the norms of others…then by default they must accept these propositions of genetics. Of course…whites can simply not think about these problems and therefore not fall into the binary trap of environment or genetics to explain it.

To form racial conslusion from genetics...when we know much less than we know about how all the bodies chemicals and proties work in conjuction with one and other, while dismissing the facts of history and that every action has reaction...implies a motivation to want to believe that blacks are inferior.

 

[Monique]

What does it mean to say that it is not this century to think that way? How does the century prevent people from thinking “that” way?

Education.

 

[NoahAfrican]

I do not think that education prevents prejudice...there have been many educated racist. Education is selective...thus...people only choose to educate themselves when they see a personal benefit. Many do not see a personal benefit in figuring out why the world blacks are suffering so. In fact, many whites want to avoid the subject because the fear that it may point back at the actions of SOME whites against blacks. Thus, they fear feeling a sense of guilt and responsibility or moral delemma eminating from this potential truth. Consquently...the do not select this realm of informal education.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Prometheus, I am not in need of your respect or affection.

If that is the way you feel then you won't get the respect. So quit whining about how you can't get any respect if you act like you don't want any.

The only way that society can do a proper accounting is to keep receipts of its transactions. The terms black and white are relevant because those were the social and economic accounts set up in the new world. The accounts and lives of millions of blacks were debited through slavery, discrimination, exploitation and colonization. This debit resulted in a credit to elite whites lives in the form of increased income and wealth. These elite whites, in turn, through trickle down economics, created opportunities for non elite whites, as the elites invested and spent their earning. Contemporaneously, the black population was kept from prospering equally from cash flow via discrimination against our race.

Now, incredulously, some people think that we should all of a sudden stop noting black and white. Well, the effect of that, at this juncture, will simply result in the ignoring of how current inequality between blacks and white occurred. Thus, this leaves the proponents of black racial inferiority offering up the only explanation of racial socioeconomic differences.

When a group of people are identified and targeted for oppression for centuries, by nations, peoples and laws, the only way to undue that damage is to target that same group of people for correction. If something was taken from a group of people, how can it be righteously given back if you stop noting who they were and who took it? Not that blacks should hold their breath in anticipation of getting back any thing from the groups and entities that took it. Rather, such knowledge helps black people refrain from internalizing a belief in their own inferiority, thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy. Perpetrated to the delight of white supremacist. Once the correction has been reconciled then, and only then, can one stop using the terms black and white.

Don't expect ME or ANYONE to pay for the sins of our white honkey ancestors. I as well as a lot of other people were taught to judge people for the person and not the color of their skin. But since you like to complain about how poorly you are treated and insist that it is based on your skin color what you are actually doing is conditioning some of the white honkeys to believe that black means everything that you are saying. Some of the white folks see the blacks as playing the victim.

Yes, blacks have been treated very poorly in the past. I think we can all agree to that. But nowhere is there a universal law that says I or anyone else owes any particual group of people squat based on the history of their dead relatives. I will treat you the same way I treat every other human being.

 

[Kerrie]

To know how rediculous it really is, go visit this website: http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/ A warning for people who judge on first glance (only look at the skin): look a little deeper and you'll see what the site really is about.

excellent website monique...

 

[Integral]

http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm should be required watching for Americans of all color.

Can it really be true that to be White is to be Racist?

 

[NoahAfrican]

Averagesupernova, now would it not be contradictory to expect for me to have expectations that whites will pay for the sins of their forefathers, given the fact that I have little confidence that the majority of the white population are not white supremacist? That does not compute.

Furthermore, what I do expect is the continuation of contemporary whites to enjoy the benefits and assets accrued from a past that the did not create. None of you fought in the revolutionary wars that freed the colony from Britain. Or if you are in another country, none of you created the nation and its independence and freedoms. None of you created the wealth from centuries ago that attracted your tired, huddled, masses of ancestors who yearned to be free from tyranny of past Europe. Yet, all of you enjoy those benefits today. How can a person rationalize they have a right to all these benefits to them from the past, yet have the audacity to argue that they are not entitled the past liabilities because the did not create them. That is pure blatant and atrocious hypocrisy. If one can rationalize not being responsible for past liabilities, then they should forfeit the benefit off all assets they inherited via citizenship to their nation as well.

 

[Monique]

If one can rationalize not being responsible for past liabilities, then they should forfeit the benefit off all assets they inherited via citizenship to their nation as well.

There are special programs that provide people from certain backgrounds with extra help.

Again you sound so bitter and are generalizing people, the thing you don't like to be done to you. The world extends past the borders of the United States, you seem to forget that. It is not all just about 'blacks and whites'.

In a few sentences: what would you like people to do about the current situation?

 

[Evo]

Furthermore, what I do expect is the continuation of contemporary whites to enjoy the benefits and assets accrued from a past that the did not create. None of you fought in the revolutionary wars that freed the colony from Britain. Or if you are in another country, none of you created the nation and its independence and freedoms. None of you created the wealth from centuries ago that attracted your tired, huddled, masses of ancestors who yearned to be free from tyranny of past Europe. Yet, all of you enjoy those benefits today. How can a person rationalize they have a right to all these benefits to them from the past, yet have the audacity to argue that they are not entitled the past liabilities because the did not create them. That is pure blatant and atrocious hypocrisy. If one can rationalize not being responsible for past liabilities, then they should forfeit the benefit off all assets they inherited via citizenship to their nation as well.

This makes no sense. I have received no financial benefits for being a white American. Specifically what benefits am I supposed to be getting that a black American wouldn't?

People have been enslaved since the beginning of time, usually white slaves. Descendants of white slaves have not asked for compensation from the people of the country in which they were enslaved.

I do not personally know anyone that feels superior to non whites. I disagree that most white Americans are guilty of feelings of white supremacy.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Averagesupernova, now would it not be contradictory to expect for me to have expectations that whites will pay for the sins of their forefathers, given the fact that I have little confidence that the majority of the white population are not white supremacist? That does not compute.

Furthermore, what I do expect is the continuation of contemporary whites to enjoy the benefits and assets accrued from a past that the did not create. None of you fought in the revolutionary wars that freed the colony from Britain. Or if you are in another country, none of you created the nation and its independence and freedoms. None of you created the wealth from centuries ago that attracted your tired, huddled, masses of ancestors who yearned to be free from tyranny of past Europe. Yet, all of you enjoy those benefits today. How can a person rationalize they have a right to all these benefits to them from the past, yet have the audacity to argue that they are not entitled the past liabilities because the did not create them. That is pure blatant and atrocious hypocrisy. If one can rationalize not being responsible for past liabilities, then they should forfeit the benefit off all assets they inherited via citizenship to their nation as well.

Yeah, this pretty much makes ZERO sense to me. So since I was not there to fight previous wars or whatever, then I have no entitlement to those benefits? Do you have any idea how an organized society works? This is like saying that if someone murdered a large number of people then all of those peoples' descendants have the right to assume that many generations of the murderers' descendants owes them big-time.

I can't believe that you are holding me responsible for something that NOT ONE of my ancestors ever did. My ancestors moved here in the late 19th century.

 

[Monique]

If actions of ancestors created a lag of development, yes: it is the responsibility of the nation to make up for the lag. I don't think anyone is personally responsible.

If through slavery families face a harder time climbing up the social ladder, they can make use of the programs that were made for them to use.

 

[NoahAfrican]

Thank you Monique, for you are absolutely correct. It is not about personal responsibility…it is about national responsibility. The nation facilitated and allowed the enslavement and discrimination against black people. This discrimination thus made it easier for the white population, because it cut down on the competition, which resulted in increased opportunities, income and wealth for whites who were not discriminated against to the degree and legality of blacks.

We also must note the difference between income and wealth. Income is often converted to wealth. A good example of wealth is land ownership, something is always appreciating as a general rule. Wealth is transferred generational. After people die, unless they have no descendants, the wealth does not go back into the pool of unclaimed land. Rather, it goes to the descendants…who often did nothing to create it. This, way, whites were allowed to accumulate wealth from centuries in this nation, while blacks were not.

Today, it is not surprising that the wealth gap between blacks and whites in America is atrocious. Whites have 10 times the wealth of blacks in America.

There is no programs in America to specifically implemented to undo the affects of centuries of discrimination against African Americans. The program that exist in America are GENERAL attempts to resolve the problems of all the poor. They are not designed specifically to address the particular needs or a group or community. Some people would argue that Affirmative Action is such a program. However, white women are the primary benefactors of Affirmative Action in America. Even with Affirmative Action, the black unemployment rate is steadily 2.5 times the rate of whites.

When people go to the doctor, you do not expect to be cured by hospitals who provide all sick people with the same general treatment. The medical profession cures illness, or treats illness, via first examining the specific problem and treating the specific roots. That is how patients get better. America cannot just treat all poor people with one general attempt at a cure, because it ignores the specific causes of the poverty of many…who will not be cured by the general treatment.

I realize that there exist a world outside America. I realize that Black and White are not the only groups on the planet. That having been said, the black/white dilemma is still a valid debate. Every debate should not be expected to be inclusive of the world.

 

[Hurkyl]

Your analogy doesn't support your thesis, though. Your "root cause" has been "cured": slavery isn't around to cause the descendants of slaves to fall behind again after a general treatment is applied.

 

[NoahAfrican]

This is not a debate about me or whether or not I use totally parallel analogies. What is interesting to me is why you chose to debate the analogy and not the actual event. That is like focusing on spelling or grammar. Some people will use the fallacy of compelling people to believe that something if there is a mistake in the presentation, then the entire presentation is therefore invalid. When people do this, this is because they have no ammunition to discredit the substance, so they focus on the superficial.

Anyway, doctors can cure the cause of an illness, while many of the effects of the illness remain as a legacy. In such a case doctors usually sends a patient to rehabilitation…from those specific effects emanating from the original disease. That is Americas failure…it failed to offer rehabilitation to the black population, after it cured them from the disease it infected them with. Consequently, that black population has not recovered to the degree that they can be competitive on par with the white population which was not diseased in this nation as blacks were.

Hope that helps…doubt it.

 

[Hurkyl]

What is interesting to me is why you chose to debate the analogy and not the actual event.

I was making an analogy, like you.


If I understood, you were arguing against the effectiveness of generic programs to resolve the problems of the poor, because they do not address the reason they came to be poor in the first place.

I argue that the original cause has already been fixed; it can't strike again. You need to fix the current condition of those who are disadvantaged. Focusing on the past doesn't help fix the present, and focusing on race only perpetuates racism.

 

[NoahAfrican]

Well, Newton would say that any thing that is touched touches back. Thus, existence is a catch-22. Had not the force of racism been used to place the black population out of equilibrium, then an equal and opposite force would not be needed to restore blacks to equilibrium.

On a forum such as this, one would think logic rules. Thus, when one examines this logically, in terms of matter, energy and forces, it takes and equal and opposite proportional force in favor of blacks to offset the negative forces that were detrimental to blacks.

It is just like mathematical equalities. If one assumes a genetic equality between blacks and white, in regards to what it takes to be competitive in the modern world, then any currently inequality is the resultant to one side of the equation being treated differently than the other. Thus, to restore the equality, one has to retroactively correct the past by treating the one side in the way that the other side was treated to create their advantage ad hence inequality between the two.

The problem is that most whites do not seem to accept the initial premise that black and white capacities are equal to the degree that they could ever achieve equally. I realize this….and I think you do too.

To that talking about race perpetuates racism is only true for whites who do not want deal with the racial burdens inherited from the past. Rather, you would rather just leave blacks in the state of inequality. You position is tantamount to saying that we should stop identifying and classifying people as RICH or POOR. That way, society does not have to deal with the issue of the rich and poor, because no one keeps track of such statistics….therefore the problem becomes invisible and untreated. A society cannot promote efforts to end poverty, when it does not even recognize that people are poor. By the same token, you cannot solve the problems that emanated from racial discrimination, in one stops noting the races. There is a juncture that noting race should end…but that is ONLY after the inequality of past racism has been rectified.

 

[Evo]

That is Americas failure…it failed to offer rehabilitation to the black population, after it cured them from the disease it infected them with. Consequently, that black population has not recovered to the degree that they can be competitive on par with the white population which was not diseased in this nation as blacks were.

Hope that helps…doubt it.

Now you are making sense. Many black slaves actually chose to remain with their former owners because they had no money and no place to live. You cannot simply set a person "free" and expect everything to be alright. Much should have been done at that time that wasn't. The former slave owners should have been made financially accountable in some fashion to the slaves they owned and benefited from. This could have been in the form of financial restitution, land or education. Unfortunately that was a much different time.

I agree that the black slaves started their freedom with a serious handicap, one that cannot be compared to people of other cultures that immigrated here of their own will. I am tired of the people that try to make comparisons with things like "a polish immigrant came to America with 1 dollar in his pocket and became a very successful business owner". I'll bet this person wasn't shunned by the majority of the populace, he was probably able to find someone that took him in and let him apprentice, a black person then in that neighborhood would not have even been considered.

The black slaves had the carpet pulled out from under them, so to speak. Large groups were suddenly thrown out on their own without any means. They were not prepared for this, they had no experience fending for themselves in this society. No comparisons can be made between the circumstances these people suddenly found themselves in and people coming here looking for a better life. The stigma and prejudice by many against blacks at that time would not allow the freed slaves to be assimilated into normal society.

Affirmative Action was a good intention that was handled wrong, very wrong. In a lot of cases it did more harm than good. You can't just hand someone a job if they aren't qualified and expect them to succeed. Then saying that the person can't be fired for being incompetent is ridiculous. I saw many white people that had no prejudice against blacks become angered because they would be working themselves to death and earning as much as the black person that was doing nothing. The white person was always in fear of losing their job while the black person knew they could get away with virtually anything. I worked for a large company in the 70's and I witnessed this on a grand scale.

Yes, there is a serious problem in this country, but it will not be solved by more handouts. The basic root of the problem needs to be attacked. This is being done to a small extent, but there are so many factors at play, it simply is not enough to make a large scale change.

 

[Dagenais]

From the site Monique linked to:

Sally and Johnny are always going on and on about how Tiger Woods changed the face of golf

Tiger Woods, his father and mother have tried to make it clear that Tiger Woods should not be considered black, but Asian. They've said this multiple times on SI and Golf Digest, but many people still insist that he is black, especially African-Americans. Tiger Wood's family, especially his mother seem to get quite annoyed when they deny his other races.

According to some sources (http://members.tripod.com/~t_woods/facts.html ), his father is 50% of African descent, 25% Native American, 25% Chinese, AND his mother is 50% Thai and 50% Chinese. This would logically make Tiger Woods 37.5% Chinese, 25% of African descent, 25% Thai, and 12.5% Native American, OR 62.5% Asian, 25% of African descent, and 12.5% Native American.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Tiger_Woods

There are special programs that provide people from certain backgrounds with extra help.

I'm assuming that you mean financially.

I've talked to many Accountants and Auditors who claim it doesn't really matter. In their opinions, a lot of African-Americans don't pay much attention to their numbers.

They spend a lot of cash that they don't have on flashy cars as opposed to more essential things, which keeps them in debt. Keep in mind - this is what I've heard, but I must admit, I've noticed it as well. A lot of Americans don't pay attention to their own numbers either and fall into debt.

People have been enslaved since the beginning of time, usually white slaves. Descendants of white slaves have not asked for compensation from the people of the country in which they were enslaved.

Extremely good point. A lot of white people have been enslaved, and Asians too. They don't ask for special rights, compensation or financial help.

I've heard that some schools gives scholarships for being African-American? What the hell is that all about? That's not equal rights. :grumpy:

In contrast, well-known Universities like UC-Berkeley has been known to keep other races out like Asians (this has ended).

 

[Averagesupernova]

Now you are making sense. Many black slaves actually chose to remain with their former owners because they had no money and no place to live. You cannot simply set a person "free" and expect everything to be alright. Much should have been done at that time that wasn't. The former slave owners should have been made financially accountable in some fashion to the slaves they owned and benefited from. This could have been in the form of financial restitution, land or education. Unfortunately that was a much different time.

First of all, considering the times, it would have been a lot to expect of slave owners to pay for the slaves way out as well as the offspring of the slaves, which would have been viewed as profit to some slave owners. Most slave owners were against the freedom of the slaves in the first place. The only reason that they were 'let go' so to speak is because the law required it. You also may not realize that a lot of slaves chose to stay with the owner because they were treated well. Some if not a lot of slaves had been prisoners of war in the original country it may well be that they felt they were better off to be working for the former owner under their own free will. Of course after slavery was outlawed the former slaves were allowed to posses material items and money and eventually moved on. It is true that some slaves were severely abused beyond the fact that the definition of slavery would be considered abuse. It would have been a lot to ask that slave owners now be required to pay to 'dispose' of something that they had always considered personal property. Something they had to pay for to begin with and were not allowed to keep but were forced to pay for the disposal. Now please realize that my wording was chosen to illustrate how the slave owners proabably felt at the time. I do not feel that any human being is considered property.

Some slave owners probably felt that if they couldn't own slaves then they should be shipped back to where they came from. They were brought to the country under the premise that they would be slaves and not that they would have to pay for their former slaves fresh start. Considering the number of generations of offspring of the slaves I would think that would have been considered ethically and morally wrong even for the times.

 

[bobf]

You know, I came across some interesting information on this topic. My teacher posed the theory that blacks in America and Canada were at the bottom of the SES due to slavery. Well, after digging up some information I found something interesting. Blacks that were once slaves in Canada and were decedents of slaves fared better economically and performed better in college then blacks that came from other black countries and were never slaves. It seems to discredit the slave theory.
Here is that paper:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/studies/11-008/feature/11-008-XIE20030046802.pdf

 

[Hurkyl]

The problem is that most whites do not seem to accept the initial premise that black and white capacities are equal to the degree that they could ever achieve equally. I realize this?.and I think you do too.

Frankly, I find this claim patently absurd. However, I realize that I don't really understand how most people think; maybe it is true. You'll forgive me, though, if I don't take your word for it.

Thus, to restore the equality, one has to retroactively correct the past by treating the one side in the way that the other side was treated to create their advantage ad hence inequality between the two.

It sounds as if you won't be satisfied until blacks enslave whites for a few generations...

Rather, you would rather just leave blacks in the state of inequality.

I would?

By the same token, you cannot solve the problems that emanated from racial discrimination, in one stops noting the races.

The thing is, past racial discrimination is only indirectly responsible for today's inequalities. As you've pointed out, past discrimination caused past economic inferiority caused present economic inferiority causes inequality. If you fix present economic inferiority then this chain is broken, whether or not the fix takes race into account.

 

[bobf]

I have to admit, I cannot talk much on this issue because I do not know the history of Africa. But, for those who do know the history of Africa, how have the blacks in Africa fared compared to the blacks in America? I know that in certain parts of Africa, blacks are still enslaved by blacks. Who is going to provided compensation for the blacks who are still enslaved by blacks in Africa?

 

[Monique]

I still really wonder what the purpose of this thread is.

I´m afraid this will be a discussion without an end.

NoahAfrican: you started the thread, what exactly is it that you want to accomplish?

 

[BlackVision]

You know, I came across some interesting information on this topic. My teacher posed the theory that blacks in America and Canada were at the bottom of the SES due to slavery. Well, after digging up some information I found something interesting. Blacks that were once slaves in Canada and were decedents of slaves fared better economically and performed better in college then blacks that came from other black countries and were never slaves. It seems to discredit the slave theory.
Here is that paper:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/studies/11-008/feature/11-008-XIE20030046802.pdf

Uh oh, what can NoahAfrican argue now.

 

[BlackVision]

I agree that the black slaves started their freedom with a serious handicap, one that cannot be compared to people of other cultures that immigrated here of their own will.

European Jews after World War II. They had nothing. No possessions, no money. And were still heavily discriminated against even after the war was over. Would you consider this a handicap?

It is also to note that after slavery was abolished, EVERY black person in America had the full right to go back to Africa. An option that virtually no blacks took including ones that lived in America for a very short period.

 

[NoahAfrican]

Monique you want to know the motive of this topic…do not make things to complicated…it is simply to promote conversation and the learning that can only manifest via conversation. I have this crazy idea that the best way to know what people think is to converse with them…stupid me.

I do not have the software to review the link on Canada statistics. However, one must be careful in comparing black populations. I do not that the Caribbean accounts as the origin of many black Canadians. Thus, their ancestors were indeed slaves, much longer, if I might suggest, than that of Canadian blacks whose ancestors were enslaved in Canada. Thus, the comparison to Caribbean’s is likely invalid.

When one looks at the African immigrants, one has to separate them by the means of their visas. Those who come as refugees usually do poorly and I think that the majority of African immigrants to Canada may be refugees. They usually are not fluent in the language and do not have a lot of education. Thus, one would expect that they fare poorer than people who have been in a nation for centuries. However, there are the Africans that come on student visa, or via the visa lottery system. These blacks are usually well educated and from the elite segments of their nations. They, in turn, usually do pretty well.

IN the case of the USA, both those from the Caribbean and Africa have higher median incomes than blacks Americans. I am not sure why those from the Caribbean have higher median incomes, but the Africans are usually better educated, because there entry into the country is filtered by education. Those Africans who come into the nation as refugees usually are not well educated and thus have lower incomes.

Someone said that whites were slaves to. That is no revelation because the term slave is a derivative of the Slavic people of Eastern Europe who were oppressed so that they coined a term after them. Most oppressed groups of people generally rose out of their oppression via migration from the lands and people who oppressed them, then finding another group of people to oppress to then lift themselves up. That is certainly the history of the oppressed of Europe. Until the discovery of the new world and colonization, the masses of Europe were oppressed by the aristocracy and monarchies. Land was the major source of power and wealth and all the land in Europe was controlled by an elite few who oppressed the masses. The new world offer new opportunities. Land, Labor and Capital have been the pillars of Western capitalism. The new world provided land taken by aggression from natives (whites testosterone levels must have been really high then), and African slaves for labor. Thus, those, whites lifted themselves up by virtue of putting others down. That has been the most successful means of advancement in human history…bar none. There was nothing virtuous about how whites did it…and may I add…I would not want to see blacks follow that example.