US Education - Nearly 1/3 of US HS students will dropout

[Astronuc]

US Education - Nearly 1/3 of US HS students will dropout!

Hmmmm. I saw the headline in Time Magazine.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1181646,00.html

Sensational? Yes.

But what to do?

Not enough Blue Collar jobs for all, not even enough WalMart and Home Depot jobs - which are more or less poverty level anyway.

See also thread - Can America Keep Up? US News & World Report
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=116454

 

[Pengwuino]

Uhm... this has been the situation for quite a while unfortunately... One of the schools here has like a 60% drop-out rate... although it's slightly improved over the past few years. I remember a big story coming out showing the drop-out rates over the area and i think our school district did well relatively with a 25% dropout rate.

Good thing all the main influences in a kids life today aren't high school dropouts themselves or people who recommend kids drop out of high school. Oh wait...

Not enough Blue Collar jobs for all, not even enough WalMart and Home Depot jobs - which are more or less poverty level anyway.

And as per the discussions before on this, people aren't suppose to get jobs at walmart to help pay off their mortgage and sustain families.

 

[SOS2008]

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_08.htm

Here is a study with a more comprehensive view. One is the percentage breakdown by race, and that unfortunately most drop outs are minorities, with 52% being Hispanic students. The study is from 1991 to 2002, so I'd say that percentage is even higher now.

With the AIMS test, here in Arizona many students are opting for a GED (online). They can then enter a community college, and then transfer to a university later. Nonetheless, my understanding is trade schools are in higher demand. So, the blue collar jobs illegals tend to take will become even more important for American youth.

The immigrants we need will be in professions such as the medical field, engineers, maybe computer science, etc.

 

[chroot]

It's a good thing I have zero loyalty to the US. As things continue to go from bad to worse here over the next fifty years -- including the economy and the recent generation of teenaged failures -- I expect to move on to Europe or some other place where I won't have to put with the consequences. You can call it an I-already-have-mine attitude if you want, but it's not like these pathetic kids had no chances. They simply forfeited.

- Warren

 

[scott1]

It's a good thing I have zero loyalty to the US. As things continue to go from bad to worse here over the next fifty years -- including the economy and the recent generation of teenaged failures -- I expect to move on to Europe or some other place where I won't have to put with the consequences. You can call it an I-already-have-mine attitude if you want, but it's not like these pathetic kids had no chances. They simply forfeited.

- Warren

Why do you have a negtive view on the U.S.?We went though bad times like this before in the past and we had good times too.Just because were having a bad time now doesn't mean it's competly terrible.

 

[Pengwuino]

Why do you have a negtive view on the U.S.?We went though bad times like this before in the past and we had good times too.Just because were having a bad time now doesn't mean it's competly terrible.

I think what he's talking about is different from the "good" and "bad" times you are talking about. What i suspect your talking about is the overall feeling of a country... comparing things like post ww2 years (immediately after that iS), vietnam era, the 80's, etc etc. What I think chroot is talking about is that the nation's components (it's citizens) are turning into just very... pathetic people and he does not want to have to deal with them as they grow up and enter the public.

I personally feel if for example, the people i know keep acting the way they do all their adult lives, i would contemplate leaving myself as i got older. I have that "feeling" though that they will most likely mature in great enough numbers so that they are mature enough to deal with in the real world. As far as the whole economic and scientific outlook... i suspect it's going to be bad although i think there's way too many variables to make a meaninful prediction as to hte future economic and scientific position of the US.

 

[Pengwuino]

http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_08.htm

Here is a study with a more comprehensive view. One is the percentage breakdown by race, and that unfortunately most drop outs are minorities, with 52% being Hispanic students. The study is from 1991 to 2002, so I'd say that percentage is even higher now.

Actually the trends are reversing. Hispanics are dropping out much less in the past few years, african americans are dropping out at a bit less, but "whites" are actually dropping more then ever... I think the study was released about 6 months ago... i got to remember who was reporting it though...

 

[Pengwuino]

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/package.jsp?name=fte/smartstates/smartstates

The losers are Arizona, Mississippi, New Mexico, Nevada, California, Louisiana, Alaska, Alabama, Hawaii and Tennessee.

Sorry SOS haha

But don't worry, California is just 4 steps up the ladder of sucktastic education so i have nothing to cheer about

 

[chroot]

Let's see... our economy is now largely based on knowledge workers and houses. The houses, of course, will become less and less valuable as the economy continues to hemmorhage, because no one wants to live in a place with a hemmorhaging economy. What's left is knowledge and residual wealth. We cling to our position as the only superpower for those reasons alone.

Knowledge. Our country continues to host the world's best universities. Few people anywhere in the world have access to such education as American citizens, even considering that, unlike other countries, education is not technically free here. Unfortunately, a third of Americans don't even bother finishing high school, and we're granting fewer and fewer science and engineering degrees -- the sort of education that got us into this fat-and-happy state to begin with. Futhermore, many of those who receive advanced degrees are foreigners who later move back to their homeland.

Residual wealth. Our country has built up a vast amount of money over the last hundred years -- things like the automobile, computers, medicine and so on have reaped enormous financial rewards. Unfortunately, we're spending our savings now at an alarming rate. We've outsourced virtually all of our manufacturing and blue-collar work to other countries. We will not be able to maintain our collective bank balances over the next century.

I'm rather sure that the US is declining in its capacity to produce products and services that would permit us to stay on top. Other countries like China and India, on the other hand, are rapidly ramping their capacities up. At some point, one of them will pass the US. It won't be long, and you can bet I'll be gone.

- Warren

 

[scott1]

I'm rather sure that the US is declining in its capacity to produce products and services that would permit us to stay on top. Other countries like China and India, on the other hand, are rapidly ramping their capacities up. At some point, one of them will pass the US. It won't be long, and you can bet I'll be gone.

How long do you think it will last for China and India?

 

[Pengwuino]

Wait wait, let's keep the hyperbole to a minimum.

I do wonder what the reaction woudl be if the government forced graduate schools to keep a quota as to how many degrees could go to foreigners. I personally don't know about India but with China, we're facing a country that simply cannot compete in the long term unless they make big changes. The more that capitalism enters into the Chinese culture, the less stable their government will be and if they do reform, their economony will have to slow down in order to re-arrange the social system to fit a more democratic society. I think that would be one of the only chances the US has to push back into firm control. I honestly don't think you can maintain a economic superpower under a dictatorship or a pseudo-communist state.

 

[scott1]

I do wonder what the reaction woudl be if the government forced graduate schools to keep a quota as to how many degrees could go to foreigners. I personally don't know about India but with China, we're facing a country that simply cannot compete in the long term unless they make big changes. The more that capitalism enters into the Chinese culture, the less stable their government will be and if they do reform, their economony will have to slow down in order to re-arrange the social system to fit a more democratic society. I think that would be one of the only chances the US has to push back into firm control. I honestly don't think you can maintain a economic superpower under a dictatorship or a pseudo-communist state.

I agree. China will not be able to keep an stable government as becomes a more proweful ecconmy and an unstable government is very bad for an ecconmy.
I also think that U.S. should have tougher polices on China.They are theart to national secuirty.We should some trade restricons on products improted form china so that our ecconmy can still keep up.

Also I'am tried of education not teaching a simple thinks about life shouldn't they teach kids that sports aren't the only thing in the world or that you can't just fail.
I'am also tried of these trouble makers in our schools.The really bad students that make stupid jokes in class and distrupt class or somtimes yell(literllay) at there teachers just because they got a detion.Some of these kids should sent to a school that is pretty much the same thing as boot camp.If there going to distrupt class for the other students then they should be sent to those schools and disturpt the other students and teachers.
I also don't think collages should have not too much to do with sports and they shouldn't be an option as a major.

But another short-term solotion to not pervent drop outs in high school:Make getting a high school degree mandtory.

 

[russ_watters]

It's a good thing I have zero loyalty to the US. As things continue to go from bad to worse here over the next fifty years -- including the economy and the recent generation of teenaged failures -- I expect to move on to Europe or some other place where I won't have to put with the consequences. You can call it an I-already-have-mine attitude if you want, but it's not like these pathetic kids had no chances. They simply forfeited.

- Warren

Though I don't share your view on the US itself, I do share your view on the concept of opportunity in the US. Hmm... The HS dropout rate is 30%. I wonder if that coincides at all with the poverty rate...?

When the government gives you something (an education) and you don't take it, you should forfeit the priveledge of the government giving you anything else (welfare).

 

[Pengwuino]

Also I'am tried of education not teaching a simple thinks about life shouldn't they teach kids that sports aren't the only thing in the world or that you can't just fail.
I'am also tried of these trouble makers in our schools.The really bad students that make stupid jokes in class and distrupt class or somtimes yell(literllay) at there teachers just because they got a detion.Some of these kids should sent to a school that is pretty much the same thing as boot camp.If there going to distrupt class for the other students then they should be sent to those schools and disturpt the other students and teachers.
I also don't think collages should have not too much to do with sports and they shouldn't be an option as a major.

Sports aren't an... oh god i hope it isn't an option for a major. The closest thing i can think of is kineseology and it may or may not be a dumby major but it's still a subject that requires work.

One of the problems here is that people are pushing this whole anti-establishment crap and leaving high school is the perfect way to show your "hatred for hte man" or whatever. It kinda annoys me that politicians and activists pander to these people who most likely put their lives on a self-destructive course for stupid or selfish reasons.

But another short-term solotion to not pervent drop outs in high school:Make getting a high school degree mandtory.

Well there would have to be exceptions of course... some people HAVE to drop out of high school for one reason or another.

 

[loseyourname]

I'm rather sure that the US is declining in its capacity to produce products and services that would permit us to stay on top. Other countries like China and India, on the other hand, are rapidly ramping their capacities up. At some point, one of them will pass the US. It won't be long, and you can bet I'll be gone.

- Warren

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Sure, China and India, or one or the other, might pass the US and become the world's most prosperous country. If it bothers you so much that the US is not #1, why not move to China or India? Why move to Europe, which long ago was in the position of the US, no longer being #1? What's the big deal with completely being on the statistical top of everything, anyway? Is your life bad? Mine isn't, and I don't imagine it ever will be, dropouts or not, science and engineering degrees or not.

 

[Gokul43201]

If you count "prosperity" in terms of the comforts accessible to a citizen with an income around the national median, IMO, neither India nor China will surpass the US for at least a century.

 

[Art]

If you count "prosperity" in terms of the comforts accessible to a citizen with an income around the national median, IMO, neither India nor China will surpass the US for at least a century.

I agree

The economic threat posed by India and china are vastly over exaggerated. In fact as these countries develop they will become huge potential markets for US output.

I say potential because if the US doesn't stop relying so heavily on domestic demand for it's goods and services and start actually exporting then other countries will seize the opportunities America is passing up.

As a small example, Newegg.com is a very good US distributor of computer components but will they ship outside the US? Nope! Like the vast majority of other US companies they are totally blind to sales opportunities overseas.

 

[Smasherman]

I do wonder what the reaction woudl be if the government forced graduate schools to keep a quota as to how many degrees could go to foreigners.

So... mercantilism of education instead of goods? Interesting idea. It might even work, but somehow I doubt it will do much more than slow down other countries a bit while they divert more resources to establishing their own top-notch universities, thus overall diverting money from the US's university towns (I live in one, btw).

 

[Smasherman]

If you count "prosperity" in terms of the comforts accessible to a citizen with an income around the national median, IMO, neither India nor China will surpass the US for at least a century.

True, but nations tend to play Empire. In that case, Asia is going to be pushing the rest of the world around for a while, even if a billion of its population are extremely poor. Might be interesting to see unionization begin in China after a communist revolution (ignoring whether or not the revolution truly succeeded).

 

[edward]

Hmmmm. I saw the headline in Time Magazine.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1181646,00.html

Sensational? Yes.

But what to do?

Not enough Blue Collar jobs for all, not even enough WalMart and Home Depot jobs - which are more or less poverty level anyway.

See also thread - Can America Keep Up? US News & World Report
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=116454

The dropout problem has become much worse in the "rust" belt in the last ten years. As for Indiana (Shelbyville was the focus of the article), they have come up with another "won't work" idea:

A new law in Indiana has made dropping out tougher. Students must now be 18 -- instead of 16 -- to drop out, unless they have the permission of a judge or their school system.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/8625565/detail.html

Somehow we have to make kids want to learn again and with the current situation I don't have a clue as to how to do that. Kids seem to be bored with learning to the point that they just don't care.

In the midwest a lot of kids have seen their parents lose their factory jobs to outsourcing only to get another job and then lose that one also. It is a vicious cycle and the family financial problems along with the downtrodden psyche of the parents is showing up in the children. I have seen this in my own extended family back in Indiana.

I do know that a lot of kids who grow up in a small town atmosphere don't really want to have to move to Detroit or Philadelphia to find work in competitive markets. Kids in the big city "hoods" tend to be the same way. Dropping out keeps them in familiar surroundings.

In essence I see this drop out trend as a psychological problem as much as anything. In the past ten years the once secure world of these kids has spun down into despair and confusion faster than they have been able to adjust to it.

 

[Astronuc]

Somehow we have to make kids want to learn again and with the current situation I don't have a clue as to how to do that. Kids seem to be bored with learning to the point that they just don't care.


In essence I see this drop out trend as a psychological problem as much as anything. In the past ten years the once secure world of these kids has spun down into despair and confusion faster than they have been able to adjust to it.

I agree that dropping out is primarily due to pschological reasons. I have heard some mention that the pressure on todays teenagers are much greater than when I was a teenager, and perhaps that is true, and in fact may be the case for the general population.

My generation had an ecomomy that was growing, but we also had the Vietnam War. Today's kids are faced with globalism and an amorphous (assymetric) war of terrorism.

I think though another problem is the perceived 'relevancy' of education - the 'relevancy' is not getting through to the kids.

There are enormous challenges ahead - but there are also enormous opportunities.

 

[dsky]

stopping the dropouts

I believe that in order for US or Bush to attain his “State of the Nation “ mission of bringing back american kids in the forefront of math & science proficiency is to do some of the following :

1. Stop hiring of third world mentors like from Philippines? to teach our kids. Let the best & the brightest americans teach the kids. Tax breaks should be given to professionals who would complete a tour of duty in teaching for ensuring proficiency of grauduate and college students. The college undergrads will in turn perform 1 year teaching supplemental math and science programs in high schools as requirement for graduating. All of this can be done with least cost, and will be donated by the sources such as Utility companies for enegy, High tech facilities by gorvernment and manufacturing companies.

2. Create or Identify role models for the type of lifes style the kids will assume for the future.

3. Use the CIA’s “Human Resources Exploitation Training Manual” methodologies to condition the mind sets of kids with variying potentials troughout the country.

4. Control & Adopt propaganda methods on all the Media specially TV, and internet. Without violating human rights.
Examples of this is the subliminal message technique.
a. Like showing continuous stream of learning materials or exercise problems with solutions on a portion of the screen while a sitcom is showing.
b. Flashing of “learning math or science is beneficial to your future instead of watching this show” before start and 1sec flashes during airing for programs of low educational value such as holywud trash . I know this will work like the surgeon gens warning on every cigarette pack, its that effective.

5. Require to show equivalent footage of science or math role models endorsing their lifestyle for every product endorsement by sports heroes, rappers, or others. 3sec flashes will be enough. ( think mr Astronuc will look fine on these )

6. Create nationwide science and math boot camp where the military can drill the basics, physical aand mental discipline on the freshman year, here they can be prepared to do schoolwork and thorough rote memorization of facts and calculations. Here Psywar tactics can be put to good use.

7. Government Agencies should treat our education problem like as a treat to national security and channel all resources and political powers to enforce its educational programs, pursue it the way they send the 1st man on the moon and the first satellite to reach pluto.

American society is advance in all aspects such as first to expirience learning fallout following the glorious era of development 1900’s to 1980s’
I hope it will be the first to bounce back from a learning fallout to another era of development.


Dsky
and finally let us share love with one another:!)

 

[Polly]

Gosh you are almost as good as the Chinese! :tongue2:

 

[dsky]

yeah girl, may be betta than the rapsta and the gang

 

[Gokul43201]

dsky : You forgot to include the law banning Americans from running away to Canada and Europe...

 

[dsky]

why would they want to run away? if the programs can show that future scenarios will be much brighter, then all the confusion will decrease. and the kids will develop a natural affinity to S & M.

besides what freedom is taken away with the above procedures?

 

[Pengwuino]

besides what freedom is taken away with the above procedures?

Some of those tactics are reminiscent of Nazi tactics at the least... I mean if you consider the fact that people sue the government by even vaguely promoting some "way of life", what chance does forcing kids into indoctrination sessions have of making it?

 

[Astronuc]

The economic threat posed by India and china are vastly over exaggerated. In fact as these countries develop they will become huge potential markets for US output.

Actually the economic competition from China and India will adversely affect the US. China and India will not become huge markets for US output, because they are learning to produce what they need at home. There is very little that the US produces that the rest of the world 'needs'.

The US economy is is a precarious position.

 

[Art]

Actually the economic competition from China and India will adversely affect the US. China and India will not become huge markets for US output, because they are learning to produce what they need at home. There is very little that the US produces that the rest of the world 'needs'.

The US economy is is a precarious position.

The US is still the world's technological leader and so there is demand for their products but apart from the multi-national corporations there appears to be little or no interest in US companies looking for overseas markets.

Interestingly enough the US's main economic competitor is Germany not China or India as Germany is the world's top exporter and the products it sells are in direct competition with the technological products produced by the US.

 

[Astronuc]

The US is still the world's technological leader and so there is demand for their products but apart from the multi-national corporations there appears to be little or no interest in US companies looking for overseas markets.

China and India, and other nations are catching up. I know of many instances where US companies are actually looking overseas for technology development, because they can't find talent in the US, and its cheaper to hire engineers in Europe and Asia! In fact, many European technology companies have their engineering done in Eastern Europe, for the same reason the US outsources work to Europe and Asia - it's much cheaper.

Also, there are quite a few industries which are now largely foreign owned. They provide goods and services to the US economy, but the money flows out of the US.

And what one doesn't see is the flight of capital from the US - some of which is illegal - but the US government hasn't bothered to look into it - much like the policy with regards to illegal immigration.

Interestingly enough the US's main economic competitor is Germany not China or India as Germany is the world's top exporter and the products it sells are in direct competition with the technological products produced by the US.

Can one separate Germany from EU?

In the case of China, I am reflecting on the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which will have a significant impact on the US.

And if Russia and China support Iran, and other countries, and they all move away from the US dollar - watch out!

 

[dsky]

... I mean if you consider the fact that people sue the government by even vaguely promoting some "way of life", what chance does forcing kids into indoctrination sessions have of making it?

Political Will will cut through this, can people really sue the gov't for this ? Maybe we should produce more lawyers instead.

Of course every individual has different abilities, not all will become top notch scientists, however there would be enough technicians so that labor competion will increase and leads to lower salary demands, which then lowers labor cost for companies thus job outsourcing will be lessened.

dsky
finally let's share love with one another

 

[Astronuc]

What Makes a Good High School?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5372097

Weekend Edition Sunday, April 30, 2006 · How can U.S. high schools do a better job? A new study identifies key characteristics of high schools that work. And at Granger High in Washington state, the principal demands high standards for students and staff.

An example of a solution. It has to be accomplished on the local level, not by mandates from the Federal government.

 

[selfAdjoint]

What Makes a Good High School?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5372097

An example of a solution. It has to be accomplished on the local level, not by mandates from the Federal government.

The US mantra, and the core reason why US education is the way it is. Local communities are dominated by wallet minded voters who have no motivation to spend on improving education, as opposed to behavior of students in schools.

 

[Astronuc]

The US mantra, and the core reason why US education is the way it is. Local communities are dominated by wallet minded voters who have no motivation to spend on improving education, as opposed to behavior of students in schools.

Education is a certainly complicated issue.

Effective education require not only effective teaching, but students who are willing and wanting to learn.

Student behavior is a significant issue. Many students come to school with problems from home or community. Some are abused, and others witness the abuse of family members. Others are ashamed because of their economic status. How can a student learn, when trying to deal with that?

Other students have learning difficulties and in some cases physiological/psychological issues that interfere with the learning process. Yet they are expected to learn along side other students who do not have these challenges!

One size does not fit all.

I was providing one example of one principal and a group of teachers who are trying to make a difference, instead of giving up.