- #36
Drakkith
Mentor
- 22,913
- 7,264
Like most topics, I feel each of us has a different view of what "Challenging Authority" and "Questioning Authority" means, and we are probably misunderstanding each other greatly.
If I was to challenge authority I would use the word able.If you always go around challenging authority, then you are never unable to learn. If you never question authority, then you can never learn either.
Buckleymanor said:If I was to challenge authority I would use the word able.
Buckleymanor said:It's never stupid to challenge authority.
We have to be very carefull and respectfull to get the best results from people.Drakkith said:Like most topics, I feel each of us has a different view of what "Challenging Authority" and "Questioning Authority" means, and we are probably misunderstanding each other greatly.
Yes, if we go by dictionary definitions, the verb "question" would mean to ask, usually for clarification. The verb "challenge" would mean to dispute the truth or validity of something.Drakkith said:Like most topics, I feel each of us has a different view of what "Challenging Authority" and "Questioning Authority" means, and we are probably misunderstanding each other greatly.
Tenshou said:Is this like some type of Luciferian disorder to dissent against authoritative and controlling beings?
Rudeness
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength."
~ Eric Hoffer
These days, when so much attention is being paid to bullying in school, as well as, dealing with difficult people in the workplace and at home, I suggest we take this opportunity to reexamine the concept of rudeness by way of a quote by philosopher Eric Hoffer. What I love about this quote (although I would change it to read, "the weak person's imitation of strength" because we know that rudeness isn't limited to a specific gender) is that it allows us to see beneath the bluff and bluster of rudeness to what is really driving this sort of behavior, weakness and fear. And at the same time, it allows us to examine its opposite, strength and confidence.
In fact, I believe that this labeling of rudeness as "the weak man's imitation of strength" is one of the best ways to look at, and then deal with this type of behavior. For example, if we were to examine how most people react to rudeness, we would very likely see some version of a fight or flight reaction. People tend to either feel threatened and pull back, or "fight fire with fire" and become rude themselves. Unfortunately, neither of these reactions is particularly effective. When we pull back, the rude person feels more powerful while we feel powerless. In a sense, they are rewarded for their rude behavior because it has had the desired effect. On the other hand, reacting by becoming rude ourselves rarely works because they then see us as the difficult person and begin to defend the very behavior we want them to change.
Of course, for those of you who are familiar with my "Top of the Mind" philosophy, you know that any fight or flight behavior comes from the lower 20% of the brain and is almost always reactive in nature. This is certainly the case with rudeness. People who are rude to others often fear rejection or at the very least expect that others won't like them and/or won't see what they have to say as valuable. Therefore, when we can see the person who is being rude as "frightened" versus "mean, obnoxious," and/or "a bully," we minimize the negative effect they have in our lives. Plus, we access the clear, confident, and compassionate part of who we are (which means we are accessing the upper 80% of our brain).
There is a quote I use in almost all of my seminars that says: "Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die" (by Malachy McCourt). Most people would agree that resentment is a very common reaction to people who are being rude, and yet, I am confident that most people would also agree that this reaction rarely results in any sort of satisfactory outcome. In fact, what often happens is that we continue to run the problematic interaction over and over in our minds and thus continue to "poison" our system with stress-related hormones. The quote that follows this "resentment/poison" perspective very nicely is "Compassion is the antitoxin of the soul. Where there is compassion, even the most poisonous impulses become relatively harmless." (also by Eric Hoffer). Therefore, if resentment is the poison, compassion is the anti-toxin and thus can allow us to detoxify any reaction we have to anyone who is being rude.
In order to have this sort of power, however, we must be able to access the clear, confident, creative part of our brain and change our interpretation of other's rude behavior from problematic, annoying, and intimidating to weak and frightened. This shift in perspective then allows us to access the sort of compassion that will give us the strength to continue on free from the effect of fear and anxiety.
In fact, given all this information, we could change the quote to "Rudeness is the frightened person's reaction to their fear of rejection." Not only does this come closer to the truth, it keeps us from responding to rudeness with a pejorative judgement of our own. Instead, we can access our compassion which we now know is an antidote or "anti-toxin of the soul" and move into life free of the poison of resentment.
Take care and God bless, Dr. Bill
you might ask your 'authorities' how it is they perceive you.old jimHowever much we guard ourselves against it, we tend to shape ourselves in the image others have of us. It is not so much the example of others we imitate, as the reflection of ourselves in their eyes and the echo of ourselves in their words.
Yup, the old airline pilots' joke still hasn't completely gone away.TurtleMeister said:Copilot: "God, look at that thing. That don't seem right, does it? Uh, that's not right."
Pilot: "Yes it is, there's eighty."
Copilot: "Naw, I don't think that's right. Ah, maybe it is."
TurtleMeister said:Andre's example of the Tenerife airport disaster reminds me of another air crash involving a challenge to authority (or lack of challenge). In the crash of Air Florida flight 90, the captain dismissed the copilots concern that an instrument panel indication was wrong, prompting the copilot (who was at the controls) to doubt his own judgement and continue with the takeoff roll.
Copilot: "God, look at that thing. That don't seem right, does it? Uh, that's not right."
Pilot: "Yes it is, there's eighty."
Copilot: "Naw, I don't think that's right. Ah, maybe it is."
Although the above transcripts seem to indicate an instrument failure as the cause of the crash, it was actually pilot error. They failed to switch on the ice protection systems prior to takeoff. However, had the copilot challenged the captains authority and aborted the take off (which he had time to do), the accident could have been avoided.
Drakkith said:In such a situation you would be very much better off either taking a different approach, or simply not pushing the question once you realize they can't give you the answer you seek. This to me is not "challenging authority" so much as it is arguing with someone. They may happen to be in a position of authority, but that fact in itself doesn't mean you are challenging them. In my opinion at least.
Of course the old rule of "It's not what you say it's HOW you say it" still applies. You may be asking valid questions, but how you say it or when you ask may be considered as rude and inappropriate.
micromass said:You seem to be unable to see a difference between "challenging authority" and "questioning authority".
For examples, when you are in scientific circles, there will always be authorities who know more than you and who have more experience than you. Do you always challenge them? Say that they are wrong? No, you listen to what they have to say and accept it. Of course, you should also think critically and judge whether their words were correct or not. Only if they were wrong, then you challenge them.
If you always go around challenging authority, then you are never able to learn. If you never question authority, then you can never learn either.
And authorities are usually wrong? Please. So that means that you consider most prominent math and physics textbooks to be usually wrong? Your parents are usually wrong? All of these are authorities.
Buckleymanor said:We have to be very careful and respectful to get the best results from people.
Misunderstandings and misinformortion cause much harm.
The problem is challenging and questioning authority both overlap.It's sometimes hard to ask a question without being challenging.
Evo said:Yes, if we go by dictionary definitions, the verb "question" would mean to ask, usually for clarification. The verb "challenge" would mean to dispute the truth or validity of something.
To members, let's not go off topic with specific examples of issues where there was confusion over something that was happening, that's not what the OP is referring to. We could go all over the place filling this thread with examples for and against decisions and outcomes.
jim hardy said:Who knows? It's a matter of degree. How easily are you set off? How hard do you push? Do you feel a "need to win" ? Do others tell you to 'lighten up' ?
Here's another to ponder:
you might ask your 'authorities' how it is they perceive you.
old jim
Tenshou said:I am an impolite person, by nature, don't blame me for my natural inquisitions, my innate curiosity. You wouldn't blame a person with down syndrome who couldn't tie their shoe could you? Why blame a person who is some what impolite?
I am an impolite person, by nature, don't blame me for my natural inquisitions, my innate curiosity. You wouldn't blame a person with down syndrome who couldn't tie their shoe could you? Why blame a person who is some what impolite?
Drakkith said:Hmmm. We could go very deep into this subject, but I think it's fair to say that a person with down syndrome literally cannot comprehend tying a shoe. You however have a much much greater control over yourself. You just don't want to change. I assume you don't even see any reason to. This is very common. One of the absolute hardest things for a person to do is to change the way they think and act.
The fact that you even asked this question tells me that you either don't understand, or don't care about the way other people think. I don't think the issue here has anything to do with challenging authority, I think you're just a rude and impolite person who has never truly given a thought about how others feel and think. If so, then please realize that while difficult, changing yourself would greatly lessen any conflicts with people you may be having. If I am incorrect...then I'm incorrect. It is difficult to know for sure based on a few posts.
stofferjj said:Really? No, I wouldn't blame a person with downs syndrome for not being able to tie their shoe.
I wouldn't because they may be incapable of doing so, but you can be polite as a sign of respect when with your peers. Its just common social protocol.
Drakkith said:Tenshou, your questions are simply too broad for me to answer in a forum post. Entire books have been written on everything you're asking and I simply don't know enough to even begin to explain my opinions.
I don't think this is fair at all. Drakkith has given you good advice but your questions based on that are impossibly broad. If someone recommends beng polite do you think it's fair to ask them to outline every parameter for how to decide what exact type of behaviour is the best option? Rather than getting bogged down in this I suggest that you pick some specific examples that you can receive feedback on e.g. "yesterday I challanged X over Y like this, was it polite?"Tenshou said:Then why attempt to abase me on a few simple post I have written? This forum post is simply here to pique you and all the others participants (anyone on this forum in general) interest in such a serious social topic. Authority and Culture(Social Context). Although, I did know you couldn't not answer these questions, just state simple opinions on it like everyone else has tried.
pongo38 said:Tenshou: There is more than one way of dealing satisfactorily with any situation such as you describe. Two different approaches are represented by a model from cricket (UK) or similar bat and ball games - I don't know much about other games. The person batting can either confront the bowled ball head on and return the ball more or less in the opposite direction to the incoming ball; or, they may carefully deflect the ball, using its momentum to change its path slightly. Personally, I have seldom found that confrontation succeeds. I have had more success with getting alongside a difficult person, traveling with them, understanding their point of view and taking opportunities as they arise to deflect them away from their chosen path. Not always successful. But neither is confrontation. Can you acknowledge that confronting authority, good as it may be sometimes in the right place, is not the only way to achieve anything? Perhaps you could amplify your response by indicating to readers the situations where confronting authority has been clearly successful, and situations where an unforeseen undesirable outcome occurred.
WannabeNewton said:What do you think you're going to accomplish challenging authority? You have to learn to get along with your peers and learn to obey those above you. Unless you're trying to recreate the French revolution or become the next Che Guevara, just learn to do what you're told to do because you're the one with the most to lose. There is a difference between questioning authority and challenging it. For most people the latter is just a sign of immaturity, stubbornness, pampered upbringing, or maybe all three together. The people of whom you speak were some of the greatest political minds in history; the common man on the other hand has to know his place.
Jorriss said:Challenging authority just to challenge authority is childish.
Tenshou said:My true underlying question is why don't people change their ways
Vanadium 50 said:Do you mean why don't other people change their ways?
Tenshou said:This is true. There is always the best way for achieving algorithmic efficiency. I mean going about something in such a way that is satisfactory for each individual situation. I do understand, I think, but everyone has been in a situation in which they didn't understand the commanders reasons for doing such a thing, and if they never had the audacity, the nerve to ask why, then why did they not ask?
Everyone has spotted and efficient way of going about something better then person in charge, at least at one point in time and they choose to stick to the accustomed ways.
My true underlying question is why don't people change their ways, their ideals which have been in the group for "as long as one can remember, it has been this way". I do not know about you, but the United States was built this way, challenging (becoming enlightened through questions) what had been established because it didn't work, it is built on the dynamic transmogrification, grotesque perversion of what established thoughts were.
Drakkith said:There are plenty of ways to go about something in a satisfactory way. And how that way meets the definition "satisfactory" is extremely varied. For one thing each person will have different priorities and areas they focus on. Some are focused on doing things the safest way, no matter if it takes 2-3 times longer, or more. Some are focused on getting it done safely and quick, and will not take quite as long in making sure the "one-in-a-million" chance accidents are dealt with before they happen. And some have no concept of safety other than "don't hit yourself with the hammer".
Drakkith said:The reason most people don't ask is probably because in the past when they have asked they've been given answers that they may not have liked, and may have tried to change, but were unable to change it. It's pretty pointless to keep asking "why are we doing it this way" when every time you ask you get an answer and there's nothing you can do about it.
Drakkith said:I disagree. I think everyone THINKS they have spotted a better way of going about something. I believe they are almost always most certainly wrong. The exceptions to this are when the person is either engaged in something entirely trivial and not worth discussing here, or when the person is actually knowledgeable in their area and can see the bigger picture. I think the latter example happens far less frequently than most people would imagine.
Drakkith said:Because people, as a general rule, abhor change. This is built into us. Change means you have to expend time and effort into doing things you probably don't care about and may cause stress, fear, anger, anxiety, etc. Things such as learning a new program at work, re-doing the steps to a task the new way, etc. And I don't know where you got this idea of the U.S. being built this way. It is my observation that it takes a great tragedy for anything to change. Either tragedy on a national scale, such as natural disasters that lead to sweeping changes in building and safety codes, or more personal ones, of which I cannot remember the example I had...
Tenshou said:No matter how much you would like to believe that anyone can see all the possible outcomes to a situation you are wrong. Humans have a hard time gathering perfect information, in the game theoretical sense. I only say that because it is true, the program Buena De Musquite(I hope he can forgive me destroying his name(>_<)). No way is the safest way, unless one person wishes to take all the blame, be this an auspicious, naive fool, they are noble and deserve respect from a people, or group of them. Socrates, for example thought you should question the way the world works. I question in the pursuit of knowledge for I know it will make me happy in the end.
No I am not. I'm merely stating the reality for most people in most cases.So, you are saying if we do not have the prestige, the skill, the strength(?) to change we should not? Are you saying we don't change because we, as humans are simply to weak to do anything about it. So would that not constitute as abuse of their authoritative power?
If they can see the bigger picture, why won't they explain it in a way such that the person who doesn't shuts-up?I do agree. Sometimes explaining the triviality or something that may be considered trivial is detrimental to understanding the cause and reason for things. Nothing is coincidental, thus has a reason.
This is true, we can't stand change, er more or less, we don't like inconsistent ideals with what has been the base for their previous understanding of ideals, like postulates to prove other postulates.
I am not sure, this is just a hypothesis but I think this "Luciferian Disorder" is a result from blasé life style, to cloy the life of being on the bottom of the centralized chain of command. I too think that could be possible true. Change happens when people want to go into a new direction, they all get tired of the old style of living and do achieve a new and efficient style of living, change isn't the necessary herald of a great disaster and vice versa.
Drakkith said:No I am not. I'm merely stating the reality for most people in most cases.
Drakkith said:Explaining things is hard. I'm serious. Explaining things in a way that almost anyone can understand and accept is nigh-impossible. Most people don't like it when you disagree with them. They get defensive and most people cannot accept things which differ from their opinion, no matter how well you put it or how logical it is. They shrug it off with a "Oh, whatever..." or "Oh please, it'll be fine..." or some other statement if they aren't simply outright hostile to your opinion.
Drakkith said:I have no idea what the chain of command has to do with it. Resistance to change encompasses every level in my opinion. It's just that people at the top are actually able to enforce their own change when they want to. That's the key. People will change when they want to. And they typically want to change towards their own ideas, not others.
I feel like you're just coming off a Braveheart marathon.Tenshou said:Dissension is the way to democracy, the rule of the people, the decentralized government has rise! I do not know, the stuff seems like you believe that a politically weak adversary don't have the right to voice opinions.
glremovals24 said:I don't see any valid reason why do you challenged authority. The reason they called authority is because they are superior than normal people.
*ahem* you seem to be forgetting a mister Jimmy Pagemicromass said:Nobody is inherently superior than somebody else.
WannabeNewton said:*ahem* you seem to be forgetting a mister Jimmy Page
Oh darn so we can't talk about Cantor eithermicromass said:We were talking about people, not gods...