- #71
zoobyshoe
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On Monday evening I'm supposed to meet an autistic savant. Her savant skills are art, and teaching herself foreign languages. She's also synesthetic, music -> colors. Should be interesting.
zoobyshoe said:On Monday evening I'm supposed to meet an autistic savant. Her savant skills are art, and teaching herself foreign languages. She's also synesthetic, music -> colors. Should be interesting.
We'll see what happens. I met her former caretaker months ago and run into her a couple times a week. She stays in touch with most of her former clients and calls her (the savant) up now and then to get together. Apparently they've been to the cafe where I hang out a few times when I didn't happen to be there. When I saw the caretaker a couple days ago she said she planned to bring her down there this evening.rhody said:Wow, considering your communication skills and firm background in art and neurology I am sure there should be some interesting stories to tell. Possibly get her to join and have a peek at the synesthesia thread perhaps ?
zoobyshoe said:We'll see what happens. I met her former caretaker months ago and run into her a couple times a week. She stays in touch with most of her former clients and calls her (the savant) up now and then to get together. Apparently they've been to the cafe where I hang out a few times when I didn't happen to be there. When I saw the caretaker a couple days ago she said she planned to bring her down there this evening.
My plan for tonight is just to get a sense of how articulate she is (what kinds of questions she can handle) and try to pin down a list of all her savant skills and synesthesias.
This is a kid's book that I think actually sums up a lot of the symptons and experience pretty well.
Are you speaking from experience or using the first person on behalf of your friend? As a kid I was hypersensitive to certain things, and I've often heard people who clearly don't have Asperger's mention similar things. In my case I think it was linked to the fact I had (or have) Migraine. Certain stimuli made me nauseated. I spent a lot of time in school feeling a sickening malaise, then I'd come home and have a terrific unilateral headache for a couple hours. A lot of things like clothing, certain foods, the sight of certain things, were intensely unpleasant.Freeman Dyson said:Aspergers=sensory bombardment. Turn the ****ing noise down. I don't want to hear any noises when I try to read. Just everything is magnified. Even touch. Clothing is an irritant. Shirts have to be broken in and worn many times to be tolerable. There is less distinction between signal and noise.
apeiron said:Yes, mechanisms may be similar, but then what is it you are suggesting? That the essential cause of neurodevelopmental differences like autism, etc, is due to faulty "group behaviour genes"? Or is it something about the cross-species story of bacteria you are getting at?
Remember that bacteria are promiscuous buggers and pass all sorts of genes across species. But this is not the case for higher animals (though viral segments and other stuff can get worked into our genomes - around 3% by some estimates).
To step back, the presumption is that neurodevelopmental disorders occur because neurodevelopment gets derailed. An array of inter-cell signalling is involved in getting a brain to construct itself correctly. This is an immensely complex story. And so it is easy to imagine dozens of ways the process could be derailed.
The bacteria connection you are making seems nothing special because bacteria, like all cells, also make heavy use of receptors and signalling systems. So what is it about them that suggests a specific derailing mechanism?
Neurons normally have a resting potential, such that the interior of the neuron is negatively charged with respect to the exterior. A neuron's potential can be be made either more or less negative by inputs it receives from other neurons at its dendrites. If the inputs a neuron receives raise its potential above a certain threshold, then the action potential (process of neural firing) is automatically triggered. (Actually, neurons normally fire spontaneously at some rate; inputs from other neurons can make a given neuron fire more or less rapidly, though.) Here are some good links that go into further detail:
This way for the neuron to evaluate a mix of positive and negative signals occurs rapidly. It turns out, however, that neurons also have a long-term way to integrate a mix of positive and negative signals converging on them. This long-term response involves changes in gene activity leading to changes in the number and activity of the cell's many synapses.
The neuron, like all cells, is encapsulated and defined by a semi-permeable membrane. Semi-permeable just means that some things can cross it, and others cannot, and some can cross it only if the cell allows them to. Ions fall into this latter group. They can only cross the membrane though channels, protein structures in the membrane which can be variably selective. At rest, when the cell is just sitting, and not transmitting signals, there are several types of channels active. There are leak channels, which allow the free flow of specific ions. Only one ion can pass through a channel at a time, so these leaks are not very strong, and they are different for different ions (depending on the number of leak channels for that particular ion). The other vitally important type of channel active at rest is the ion pump. These pumps push ions against their electrochemical gradient, and with the leak channels help to maintain steady concentrations of ions inside the neuron.
There are other types of voltage sensitive ion channels which have different dynamics and can affect things like the rate and pattern with which neurons fire.
The brain strands or minicolumns of autism patients have more cells, but they are narrower and more densely packed -- which can limit the brain's ability to send messages.
Dr. Casanova says that's because "there's not enough juice to actually power very long connections in the brain."
Examining tissues from a normal brain and the brain of an autistic person, Dr. Casanova explains the differences. "The more bluish staining actually means more cells present," he says.
More cells and smaller cells, making up tiny brain strands, or minicolumns. These minicolums take in information, process it and respond to it.
rhody said:The question is then, since bacteria have been shown to communicate to other bacteria (not the same type) with enzymes common to all species, is the same true for neurons ? More important are there different types of neurons (layman's question I am not a biologist) where intra-species (if there are different types of neurons) communication is possible.
rhody said:Do gene abnormalities express themselves sometime in the critical time period 3 - 5 years when most toddlers are diagnosed as being autistic ?
Hmmmm...well, the caretaker showed up with the autistic woman and another mutual friend at the cafe. They were 2.5 hours late. They didn't mention why, but I think there was a reason for it.rhody said:You are a master at that so I am sure there will be some interesting exchanges. I have a friend at work whose stepson may have it (synesthesia) as well. He is forwarding the link to his step Dad. Hopefully it will prove useful and interesting to him and his stepson. Only time will tell. Later.
Hey, every experience is novel now isn't it ? It sounds like the caretaker "punked" you, she wanted to impress you and it back fired. It would have been cool if she had the abilities that she claimed to have however.I think what happened was that the caretaker, in previous conversations, had grossly inflated her descriptions of the autistic woman's abilities, just cause she knew I liked neurological prodigies.
It makes me think that all reports of autistic synesthetes may have to be doubly scrutinized, at least twice, and a few more times for good measure.
GreatEscapist said:I've gotten used to the sensory stuff, and tried very hard to get over it. Sound was mine.
And it was never an issue- just loud. And curious.
And yes, social norms are hard to fit into.
apeiron said:I think you are reasoning from a variety of faulty assumptions here.
Neurons propagate signals down their axons by a wave of ionic activity - ions crossing the membrane - but then signal across a synapse (mostly) by releasing neurotransmitter messengers. (What you are calling enzymes).
Ion pores and ligand-gated channels are just standard biological equipment common to any cell. Neurons are cells that have been designed to make special use of their properties. So what you need to compare is not the components that would be common to many species of life, but the functional design of the cells involved.
There are many "critical periods" in brain development. You may be thinking of language development in particular. True autism is considered to show from birth. If you know what to look for. That is another reason for thinking it a low-level sensory integration issue (not a ToM one).
Indeed.rhody said:Hey, every experience is novel now isn't it ? It sounds like the caretaker "punked" you, she wanted to impress you and it back fired. It would have been cool if she had the abilities that she claimed to have however.
It should be clear from my post why. Autistic people will give affirmative answers to questions when they really don't understand what you're asking, many can memorize long lists of things and remember them accurately for years, and their descriptions of their experiences can be oblique and inpenetrable, causing people to interpret what they say incorrectly.Why ? Have you met a real autistic synesthete, or read of people claiming to have both that make you suspicious that they really don't exhibit the behavior/sensing of both ?
It is more like a rewrite and update of Synesthesia: A Union of the Senses. Just read the whole book, but don't count on any of it to be accepted forever. Like I said this whole field of research is new and everything's subject to change, especially statistics.BTW. I picked up "Wed is indigo blue" the other day. Are their sections I should pay special attention to or that you agree with or have issues with, or for that matter skip altogether because it is simply a rehash of "The Man Who Tasted Shapes" ?
I am the sensitive type? I don't know what that means. Anyway, I wasn't even aware of this quake till I saw mention of it in the paper. I'll tell you that before the biggish Easter quake we had, I had no inkling it was coming, nor did I notice animals acting funny.P.S. knowing you are the sensitive type, did you notice/sense anything before the earthquake hit yesterday ?
Thanks for posting. It's very interesting to hear your history of effort to get the hang of social interactions.Britters said:As an Aspie I have run into a lot of individuals whom don't understand that Asperger's is very different from one another in terms of how it is expressed, the individual's sex, if the individual has other disorders that are common with those afflicted with Asperger's, like ADHD/ADD, Depression... but the only noticable symptoms/characteristics that label's someone as having Asperger's, from what I gather through research and interviews with professionals, is the lack of eye contact, social withdrawl and the obsession of a specialized interest.
I believe for myself the best treatment I have had (with the endless support of my family) was the innovative (at the time in the early 90's) was obtaining daily ridorous behavioural therapy that was given by fellow supportive teachers and family members which was overseen by a professional. After 10 years I was able to maintain eye contact and maintain at least one friendship and later on eventually go on dates (still struggle at times, but the key is to have a partnership with someone who understands and has the patience of a saint, VERY HARD TO FIND, mind you.) One of my fond memories, as an aspie, when i was young was my favourite interest, even as to this day, Ancient Egypt, I would go for hours researching this subject making sure I soaked in every bit of information.
The actual reason may be purely bureaucratic, as someone hinted in another thread. Placing it with autism gives it a more severe connotation which probably makes it easier to get health care funding. It's probably easier to convince a judge that someone with 'mild autism' might warrant Social Security than it is to convince them that someone with 'Asperger's' does. Saying that someone doesn't make eye contact, is socially awkward, and has obsessive interests doesn't sound severe enough that they couldn't hold a job. But if you say "autism", it makes more sense that they aren't going to be able to function productively in a workplace.Britters said:I think people placed Asperger's in the autistic spectrum because of the key characteristic of social withdrawl, social awkwardness and whatnot.
zoobyshoe said:Thanks for posting. It's very interesting to hear your history of effort to get the hang of social interactions.
The actual reason may be purely bureaucratic, as someone hinted in another thread. Placing it with autism gives it a more severe connotation which probably makes it easier to get health care funding. It's probably easier to convince a judge that someone with 'mild autism' might warrant Social Security than it is to convince them that someone with 'Asperger's' does. Saying that someone doesn't make eye contact, is socially awkward, and has obsessive interests doesn't sound severe enough that they couldn't hold a job. But if you say "autism", it makes more sense that they aren't going to be able to function productively in a workplace.
Yes, I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head.nismaratwork said:I'll say it again, the WHO and DSM classifications are for insurance purposes; to look at them in another way is to miss the point. There is a matter of simplifying the spectrum when they do seem to be similar, or at least hard to differentiate in terms of the cause and biology. Until there is a genetic or functional test that explains more than we see now, ASD is going to encompass "things" that do not necessarily share a common cause.
ASD is a lot like saying, "I broke a bone". That is informative and classifiable, but of no help to the doctor or patient who needs to distinguish between "spiral fracture of tibia", "green-stick fracture of 3rd rib" or "shattered pelvis". Yet they are all broken bones. In no way does the DSM represent the leading edge of science, or the art of psychology.
zoobyshoe said:Yes, I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head.
Funny how you had to learn about your simple partial seizures through indirect means of Dr Cytowic, but that's the serendipitous way of things I guess. Both you are nismaratwork are real smarty pants, hehe. Now, where was I. dribbles off...A couple years later I discovered by complete accident that deja vus are simple partial seizures.
rhody said:Wow, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr, nismaratwork, you need to watch this:
http://www.ted.com/talks/aditi_shan..._campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email"
http://www.ted.com/speakers/aditi_shankardass.html" to get to the heart of the video, fast forward to 3:05.
To sum it up:
- Used on children with observed developmental disorders (particularly as it applies to autism)
- Using Real Time rEEG, and two software programs:
- Brain Electrical Activity Mapping (triangulates source of abnormality in the brain), and Statistical Probability Mapping
- rEEG scans observed that in 50% of children diagnosed with autism (also showed signs of spacing out), they were instead suffering from hidden brain seizures, wow.
- Once properly diagnosed they could be put on appropriate anti-seizure meds.
Rhody...
P.S. Zooby,
Funny how you had to learn about your simple partial seizures through indirect means of Dr Cytowic, but that's the serendipitous way of things I guess. Both you are nismaratwork are real smarty pants, hehe. Now, where was I. dribbles off...
nismaratwork said:Wow, that is fantastic! Rhody, Zooby, this is an absolute pleasure. I have to think about the implications of this, but I'll comment tomorrow. Really, that was a great find Rhody.
zoobyshoe said:One possible explanation for your co-worker not seeming typical comes from a book I read about Asperger's which asserted it is very frequently co-morbid with either 1.) OCD, 2.) Seizures, 3.) ADD, or 4.) Tourettes. So, his blunted affect might possibly be the side effect of a med he takes for a co-morbid condition.
rhody said:On reflection of this finding, the thought occurred to me, the only way to see a rEEG evidence of a seizure (without actually waiting for one to happen, then try to get the equipment on and test for it) would be to look for warning signs in the scan and real time analysis (like tremors before an earthquake). Or, God forbid find a way to induce one. I don't believe that scenario either. So how did she, Dr Shankardass, pull this off ?
nismaratwork, zooby, aperion, SW VandeCarr ?
Rhody...
OxfordJournals said:We have systematically studied and resolved the issues of patient safety and pulse artefact and now report the application of the technique in 24 experiments in 10 consecutive patients with localization-related epilepsy and frequent interictal epileptiform discharges (spikes or spike wave). At least two experiments were performed for each patient. In each experiment, 10- or 20-slice snapshot gradient-echo planar images were acquired ~3.5 s after a single typical epileptiform discharge (activation image) and in the absence of discharges (control image). Between 21 and 50 epileptiform discharges were sampled in each experiment. The significance of functional activation was tested using the t test at 95% confidence on a pixel-by-pixel basis. Six of the 10 patients showed reproducible focal changes of the blood oxygen level-dependent (BOLD) signal, which occurred in close spatial relationship to the maximum of the epileptiform discharges in the concurrent EEG.
nismaratwork said:This is a study from 2009 regarding schizophrenia and the role the DMN (Default Mode Network) seems to play (or reflect?) in it. http://www.pnas.org/content/106/4/1279.full.pdf
fuzzyfelt said:I haven't read that yet, but once linked Charles McCreery's hypothesis about sleep, thinking it seemed a little related to this.
Yes, second hand experience over the last 13 years. We have family friends, who lost their father 13 years ago suddenly without warning, died in his sleep. The youngest daughter, then age 3 who was very close with her Dad began to have what was later diagnosed as an epileptic seizure 3 days after her father died. Cause to this day, unknown, although the neurologist team who care for her suspect stress played a part.I'm going to assume that you have a functional knowledge of epilepsy
The seizure threshold can be altered by fatigue, malnutrition, lack of sleep or rest, hypertension, stress, diabetes, the presence of neon or laser flashes or lights, rapid motion or flight, blood sugar imbalances, anxiety,antihistamines and other factors
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlin...ear_Schr.C3.B6dinger_equation_in_water_waves":it presents very regularly, in what I would describe as advancing and retreating waves of abnormal firing throughout the cortex.
rhody said:nismaratwork,
Yes, second hand experience over the last 13 years. We have family friends, who lost their father 13 years ago suddenly without warning, died in his sleep. The youngest daughter, then age 3 who was very close with her Dad began to have what was later diagnosed as an epileptic seizure 3 days after her father died. Cause to this day, unknown, although the neurologist team who care for her suspect stress played a part.
Fast forward to last summer, vacation at Disney in August (yes, I know what you are thinking, are you nuts ?). Due to bad economy great deal on 2 week stay. During the trip the daughter, now almost 16 had three grand mal seizures in 14 days. The one that struck a chord with me started in the pool. I was talking to her and she spaced out for 10 - 15 seconds, then said, you could see the fear in the eyes as well, "I need to go to the room now, she knew a seizure was on the way." I didn't because I had never seen the spaced out precursor before up close and personal. We got her back to the room, not in time though, I had to fireman carry her part way. She was given a powerful suppository that took immediate effect. I would guess the seizure lasted two to three minutes.
Her Mom said that she is diagnosed as having both, petite and gran mal (now known as: Tonic–clonic). She can have either type, and the stressor's from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic%E2%80%93clonic_seizure" :
Fast forward to today, her Neurologist's have made adjustments to her meds. I am happy to report she has not had a Tonic-clonic in the past four months. A good thing because we are planning to vacation with them this August to a hot Caribbean island, so the same stressor's will be present as last year.
You also said:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlin...ear_Schr.C3.B6dinger_equation_in_water_waves":
I saw a show recently where a physicist, I am not sure of his name, who may have authored this paper: http://books.google.com/books?id=N7...resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false".
My point is: can similar models be created then used within the brain to predict the onset of the brain waves event or events that in some way mimic rogue ocean wave behavior in the brain, (with a rogue wave as a triggering event) which in turn lead to petite or Tonic–clonic seizures. If so, then can monitoring devices including stimulation sensors act to intervene before a seizure occurs ? I have to believe it could be possible, in part by consulting experts in rogue wave behavior.
Rhody...
misnderstudge said:i am not an expert at all, but my brother has aspergers and the way i would describe it is, if you take someone who is blind no vision at all and never had, and someone with 6/6 vison. a blind being autism and 6/6 being aspergers. 6/6 they can see the world they can see out side there small bubble but not like someone with 20 20. it is hard to get around talk about themselves get help and so on while a blind person can't make sense of the world at all really they need help from a dog a carer or whatever not sure if that makes sense so i do agree with it. the help you give is different when i worked in care before i became a EMT, what i would do when i met someone for the first time, i would speck to them as a "normal" person and see there reaction, it is the best way to talk to sufferers. don't speck to them as a child until you can see plainly the have the mental age of a child it can be frustrating for them if you do and make them very uneasy
Haley said:Someone was saying that high functioning autistics don't try socializing as much as aspergers individuals? I was just thinking about personality traits. Wouldn't that play into an individuals differences between autistic people and such? Like, introversion and extroversion and shyness?