- #211
zapperzero
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nikkkom said:Can you elaborate?
On the anger issue? I am afraid this is the wrong thread. I am angry because the town should have been evacuated, with full support from TEPCO and the Japanese gov't.
nikkkom said:Can you elaborate?
TEPCO and the government should support folks who would like to leave, as in voluntary evacuation, rather than live with exposure to the radioactivity/radiation that TEPCO caused.alpi said:Would it be better to forcibly evacuate more people despite what is said here http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,780810,00.html ? Don't think so.
Gary7 said:I would point out that some of the city of Namie is located within the 20 km evacuation zone, and some is within the wider "planned evacuation zone". The city government of Namie has encouraged people to relocate, and they are assisting people in this regard. There are temporary shelters set up in Fukushima city for use by residents of Namie, and there are a number of schemes from the city, prefecture, and national government set up to provide cash for the citizens of Namie. Information direct from the Namie city hall website http://www.town.namie.fukushima.jp/ .
Recently there are also movements to get cash settlements from Tepco.
Whether or not all the above is sufficient or fair or just, I shall leave it to others to hash out on the political thread.
Jim Lagerfeld said:North winds and rain for the first time in quite a while in Tokyo, while we were all out enjoying the a break from the heatwave, environmental radiation clearly spiked during the short rain storm - from o.o65 to 0.01 uSv in Kawasaki, 0.058 to 0.093 in Saitama city. You can see it very clearly here: http://guregoro.sakura.ne.jp/radioactivity/kanagawa/ and a screen grab heredata is taken from official prefectural monitoring stations.
Gary7 said:I don't wish to engage in a polemic about what the country, prefecture, or city is doing (or isn't doing) to insure the health of its citizens.
I was pointing out that parts of Namie are within the evacuation zone, and other parts are in the "planned evacuation zone" (whether or not the "planned" in either the translation or the original Japanese is appropriate or not I leave to the linguists). And I was also pointing out the existence of financial help at the national, prefectural, and city level. I would be extremely surprised if anyone in Namie city is finding life to be normal.
The Adatara Stadium in the article for which you provided the link, is part of the temporary shelters available to the residents of Namie. It is located in the city of Nihonmatsu, some 10 miles or so beyond the "planned evacuation zone". It is being returned to its original function as a stadium, and so Namie town is asking those sheltering in that stadium to relocate to other temporary shelters (which are located throughout Nihonmatsu and Fukushima city).
zapperzero said:I, for one, am extremely surprised that there is still anyone in Namie city. Do you happen to know why this is so?
Oh. Fukushima city. That makes it all better... not.
Have you seen this?
http://www.town.namie.fukushima.jp/?p=6455
16 uSv/h in the air (h=1m) on school grounds? Please tell me no-one is actually going to school there!
It comes out to 20-something mSv/year, even assuming 8hr days, six months vacations and no other exposure!
Ad hominem.nikkkom said:You know, I am very critical of nuclear industry and government. However, I also try to be reasonable in what I demand/expect from them. You are not.
Oh, anywhere East of a line running N-S 30 km East of Fukushima NPP should do, for now. Not on the coast, though.Where do you want people to be relocated? South pole?
There are hotspots in Fukushima city too. They have not been mapped properly, let alone decontaminated. It is not a good place to be, especially for people who have already gotten a significant dose.Namie is right in the center of the north-westerly radioactive fallout strip. Fukushima city is four times farther from F1 and has contamination levels about 20 times lower than Namie. I don't see what's wrong in relocating people from Namie to Fukushima city.
Yes. They stopped in July and will resume in September.I think schools don't work in August.
These guys http://www.wellesley.edu/ScienceCenter/Safety/maximum.html say 0.5 R should be maximum exposure per year for a member of the general public. What makes you believe otherwise?2 roentgen/year, yeah. Everybody will die DIE DIE DIE! I mean, can you calm down please for a second?
No? Again, citation please, as they say on Wikipedia. Also, please remember that this is only the dose from going to school we're talking about. I doubt the rest of the city is much cleaner.Even discounting the effects of further decrease of these levels due to decay, natural washout and decontamination, this level of *external* exposure is not notably dangerous.
And they were evacuated. What is your point?For the comparison, people in Pripyat got upwards of 30 roentgens *in one day*. Now _that_ was a serious exposure.
Yes. There is that. In fact, 16 uSv/h at 1 meter from the ground, so long after the accident and with infinitesimal current release rates, pretty much spells "cesium in the ground, and lots of it".The bigger problem is internal exposure (children will drink local water and inhale dust and get Cs and Sr in their body and bones).
Japan government needs to start decontamination programme (in fact, I expected it to be in full swing by now) to make cities and roads safer. I am puzzled that this does not seem to be happening. If I would be a Japanese, I'd be angry at _that_.
rowmag said:Yes, I had noticed this in another location which was also downwind of Fukushima Daiichi and raining heavily that day. Two questions, for anyone who knows:
1) Why did the levels drop again after the rain stopped? If it was Cesium being brought down, should it not have remained on the ground and raised the background level permanently afterwards (as happened in the March bursts in several places)? But it doesn't, it drops back to the previous level after the rain stops. Why the difference this time from the spikes in March?
2) What does this imply about the ongoing level of atmospheric emissions from the plant?
zapperzero said:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/22/world/asia/22japan.html?_r=1
Official admission that the exclusion zone will remain closed indefinitely
alpi said:Is "The New York Times" an official? Or ex-skf.blogspot?
alpi said:Is "The New York Times" an official? Or ex-skf.blogspot?
rmattila said:If there's radon in the soil (I don't know what the situation is in Japan), one explanation for external radiation peaks during and briefly after heavy rainfall could be wash-down of short-lived daughters on Rn-222: http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1241.html
zapperzero said:Where do you want people to be relocated? South pole?
Oh, anywhere East of a line running N-S 30 km East of Fukushima NPP should do, for now. Not on the coast, though.
nikkkom said:Please be informed that Fukushima city is about 40 kilometers to the East from F1 NPP, and about the same distance to the North. (Google maps says that distance from it to F1 is ~61 km, and 40^2 + 40^2 < 60^2, so at least one side of the triangle should be more than 40 km).
IOW: Fukushima city fulfils your criteria above.
Bodge said:Regarding radioactive Sulfur-35,
"Our model predicts that the concentration in the marine boundary layer at Fukushima, was approximately 200,000 atoms per m3, which is approximately 365 times above expected natural concentrations."
They believe approx. 0.7% of that reached Scripps, California. ...
tsutsuji said:http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-fukushima/20110824/index.html The ministry of education has officially discarded its goal to achieve less than 20 mSv / year or 3.8 μSv / hour in schools. Instead the goal is now 1 mSv / year or 1 μSv / hour.
zapperzero said:http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201108240292.html
TEPCO announces it will start monitoring local fallout (5-10 km radius) and steam emissions from the plant. Also planned: new radiation sensors for drywells.
Better extremely, unaccountably, criminally late than never, eh?
NUCENG said:The article says they are using water filled tubs tubs as a new collection method to determine if measurements they conducted in July and August are overestimating releases by including radiation deposited and re-released as airborne radioactivity. Your comment implies that they haven't been monitoring previously which is disproven by the article references to monitoring in July and August. If their new method allows them to be more accurate on release measurements and lowers the estimated releases, that is good news for the Japanese. But my guess is that you will be disappointed or even accuse them of fudging the results.
The news that the exposure standards for schools and children have been lowered is good news. Implementing better measurement methods that reveal more information about what is really happening is good news. Temperatures on RPVs dropping belpow 100 DegC is good news. If you don't recognize what is good, it will hurt your credibility on your valid criticisms. If we continually beat up TEPCO and GovJapan when they are doing something right, what motivation do they have to continue to tell us anything or expend the effort to provide information in English?
zapperzero said:Yes. It is all good news, I honestly meant what I said: better late than never. Have you seen the July and August numbers they are referring to? I must have missed them.
OTOH I still haven't seen the data re: steam that they had promised to gather since June, iirc, the helicopter survey was pushed back to October (firmly in "next gov't's problem" land) and so on and so forth.
IMO, the reason we are getting any information at all is simple and has nothing to do with our goodwill: there is a line between "apparent bumbling inefficiency" and "outright lies, in violation of various laws". TEPCO and the J-gov are staying (to their credit, ultimately) JUST on the lawful side of that line.
EDIT: There are skeletons in the closet. Have you seen this?
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3468442&postcount=288
NUCENG said:The July and August measurements were used to estimate the ongoing release rate. They have published the estimates, but I have not seen the data or calculation details.
I understand your opinion, but in your comment you were talking about criminal. That would require the deficiencies to be either negligent or deliberate. If so I will wait for the Japanese courts to decide that issue, because I have no proof. I doubt that the technicians making the measurements after having their pay cut will be silent when that invrestigation gets going.
I don't know why they didn't sample the steam, but they were measuring the air and fallout offsite which is the cumulative effect of steam and gaseous releases and windblown contamination. Is there a reason that the portion due to steam was more important?
Yes I saw Tsutsuji's post and pointed out that I had seen indications that TEPCO knew about the 869 eartquake during the post-KK earthquake reviews and ignored it.
In short There are many problems included in this accident. As an engineer, I seek facts and solutions. It is tempting to try to make our posts memorable by using trigger words, like "criminal", but it isn't helpful in a search for truth. I am suggesting that we all think before we push the Submit Reply button. Is what I wrote fair? Is it supported by facts. If it is opinion, did I label it as my opinion and have I explained how I got there? Does it add to the discussion?
zapperzero said:Look, I know I am prone to using emotionally-charged language. Just not this time. Bad decisions made before the fact (and their consequences), are being hidden with inconsequential half-truths, obfuscation and delays.
Nor has anyone outside TEPCO. Why do you suppose that is? How about the overall source term calculation?
IF an investigation gets going. But will the J-gov investigate?
More important than what? We do not have access to fallout data from within the zone, either. We get bits and pieces, here and there.
There's your criminal negligence, right there. So, reckless endangerment of plant workers and people living around the plant, at the very least. Possible manslaughter charges, should anyone eventually turn up dead because of what the tsunami did to the NPP.
I would like to ask you to please take a look at the system called "Fukushima NPP". Its current state encodes the consequences of many events; some are natural and some man-made. Do you suggest that in our search for the truth of what happened we discard from analysis the man-made ones?
When thinking of the safety of NPPs (or of any other artifacts) must we think of the people who are operating them and the ways their action or inaction may influence the safety of the system?
A budget analysis indicated that approximately 13% of iodine-131 and 22% of cesium-137 were deposited over land in Japan, and the rest was deposited over the ocean or transported out of the model domain (700 × 700 km2).
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/pip/2011GL048689.shtml
Vertical atmospheric DC electric field at ground level, or potential gradient (PG), suddenly dropped by one order of magnitude at Kakioka, 150 km southwest from the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear power plant (FNPP) right after the plant released a massive amount of radioactive material southward on 14 March, 2011.
http://www.agu.org/pubs/crossref/2011/2011GL048511.shtml
Meanwhile, the Chiba prefectural government said 47 becquerels per kilogram of cesium were detected in preharvest rice in the prefectural city of Shiroi.
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110826p2g00m0dm015000c.html
The data set provided in this paper is the most comprehensive survey of the main relevant airborne radionuclides from the Fukushima reactors, measured across Europe. A rough estimate of the total 131I inventory that has passed over Europe during this period was <1% of the released amount. According to the measurements, airborne activity levels remain of no concern for public health in Europe.