In memory: Rachel Corrie (1979 - 2003)

[Bilal]

Christian and Jews under Islam

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

This is ''extremists" Zionist site (full by pro Zionism propaganda) but they admit at least that Muslims lived tolerate with Jews in middle ages. If those extremist Zionist can not deny it, then surely you should believe in it!:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Sephardim.html

((In 409 CE, the Visigoths (Aryan Christians) conquered Spain and treated the Jews harshly. A canon was passed in 589 prohibiting the marriage of Jews and non-Jews. In 612, the Council of Toledo ordered the baptism of all Jews to take place with the next year. The practice of Judaism was outlawed in the Visigoth kingdom.))

((The situation improved in 711 when Spain fell under the rule of the Muslim Moors. Both Muslims and Jews built a civilization, based in Cordoba, known as Al-Andalus, which was more advanced than any civilization in Europe at that time. Jews were able to coexist peacefully with their neighbors; however, they were still treated as dhimmis, "People of the Book" (Jews and Christians) who are protected under Islamic law. Jews did not have complete autonomy and had to pay a special tax, the jizha , but were able to freely practice their religion.))

Rich Muslims pay Zakat (religious tax) also Rich Christian and Jews should pay Jijya if they do not want to join the army to defend the country. This money should go to help poor people in the country.

((The era of Muslim rule in Spain (8th-11th century) was considered the "Golden Age" for Spanish Jewry. Jewish intellectual and spiritual life flourished and many Jews served in Spanish courts. Jewish economic expansion was unparalleled. In Toledo, Jews were involved in translating Arabic texts to the romance languages, as well as translating Greek and Hebrew texts into Arabic. Jews also contributed to botany, geography, medicine, mathematics, poetry and philosophy.))


((By the mid-13th century, the Christians controlled most of Spain and increasingly forced Jews to convert to Christianity. Those who converted became known as Marranos or New Christians))

((Anti-Jewish riots broke out in 1391 in several Spanish cities and the situation worsened for the Jewish community. New Christians were tortured or killed in the Spanish Inquisition during the 15th century. Father Tomas de Torquemada felt that if the Jews remained in Spain, then they would influence the new converts to Christianity. After the capture of Granada from Muslim forces, Father Torquemada convinced King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella that the Jewish community was expendable. In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand commanded that all Jews who refused to convert to Christianity be expelled from Spain. The Jews were given four months to leave Spain and were forced to sell their houses and businesses at low prices. It is estimated that 100,000 Jews left Spain at this time. The expulsion from Spain is commemorated every year by all Jews on the holiday of Tisha B’Av.))

((For hundreds of years, Sephardic Jews lived, as dhimmis, in relative peace with Muslim neighbors and rulers in North Africa and in the Ottoman Empire. They were considered second-class citizens, but were free to practice their own religion and participate in commerce. Similar to Spain and Portugal during the Golden Era, the Sephardic upper class in the Ottoman empire were employed as translators.

The Sephardic communities in the Arab world were more receptive to modernity than their Ashkenazi counterparts in Europe. The Zionist movement became popular among Sephardic Jews in North Africa. Many Sephardic rabbis in the Ottoman Empire supported Zionism and the Zionist movement spread to many Muslim countries in North Africa, such as in Egypt and Tunisia.))

Any Sources for this information?

 

[Hurkyl]

It might be well-known to you, but it ain't well-known to me.

From Wikipedia:

"The Byzantines cherished the city for its Christian history. However, in accordance with traditions of religious tolerance often found in the ancient East, Jews were allowed into it in the 5th century."

From one of Wikipedia's references:

324 — 638

The Byzantine Period
438
Empress Eudocia permits Jews to live in Jerusalem
614
Persian conquest of Jerusalem — They destroy most churches
and expel Jews
629
Recaptured by Byzantines.

638 — 1099

The Early Muslim Period

638
Six years after Mohammed's death, the Caliph Omar enters
Jerusalem and Jews are readmitted to Jerusalem

I quoted this last passage too, since it seems to be to what your version of history refers. (Forgetting earlier events) There is a questionmark about what happened between 629 and 638, though.


Anyways, another interesting line from Wikipedia:

Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when a Palestinian-Arab state failed to materialize and the British Mandate of Palestine was invaded by Egypt and Jordan, Jerusalem was divided. The Western half of the New City became part of the new state of Israel, while the eastern half, along with the Old City, was annexed by Jordan. Jordan did not allow Jewish access to the Western Wall (known to non-Jews as the Wailing Wall) and Temple Mount, Judaism's holiest sites, in the Old City. Jordan constructed a slum within a few feet of the base of the Western Wall and used the area as a garbage dump, and converted some churches to mosques.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Hurkyl,

All my sources are western sources or Israeli. It is not necessary that I agree with them, because I am Palestinian and I have my own sources. If I present Palestinian sources, you have right to reject them, so I try to prove my views by using ONLY western or Zionist sources .

Here is the story of Jerusalem from Islamic and eastren christian sources:

The Christian leader of Jerusalem rejected to give the key of the city till he meet Omar (Muslims Khalifa) to sign agreement. Therefore Omar decided to come by himself to get the city and to save many lives. He traveled from Arabia to Palestine (around 1500 Km). During his long journey (on donkey and Camel) he divided the guide between himself and his servant. So Omar will ride the donkey and let his servant pull it for one day, and in the next day Omar pull the donkey and ask his servant to ride it, because both of them can not ride the donkey in the same time, and the Camel is used for carrying food and water.

Omar arrived Jerusalem after several weeks pulling the donkey and wearing old clothes. Byzantine soldiers shocked when they see the difference between their leaders and this man who defeated Persia and Byzantine Empire in the same time within few years.

The leader of Jerusalem welcomed Omar and they signed agreement called (Omerian promise)) which asked to protect the Christian of Jerusalem.. Etc. One of rules of the agreement mentioned that Jews should not stay in the city. After negotiation, they agree that Jews should not be allowed to stay the city during the next 10 years, and if they cause any troubles for Christian in future they should be expelled.

This means that no Jews are allowed to live in this city when they signed this agreement. May be Byzentine rulers changed their opinion after Persian invasion and decided to ban the Jews again?

There is a questionmark about what happened between 629 and 638, though.

 

[sid_galt]

I accept the first link, but surely the second link is just Zionist propaganda, if you would like I can show thousands of Palestinian propaganda links? To be honest, we should refer to trusted links only! Unless if I want to prove anti Zionism views by using their sources or if you want to prove anti Palestinian views from Palestinian sources. By following this strategy , we can keep the high level of the discussions.

Bilal, first of all, you provide no evidence that the second link is Zionist propaganda.

Secondly, what I quoted from that site is a fact. The Arab League of Nations attacked Israel first.

 

[klusener]

They attacked Israel because the land that they had been living in for many years had been taken away and they had a moral right as humans to defend it. If someone came to your house and told you that you had to leave because their Holy book says that Sid_galt's house is their house, would you leave without a fight?

 

[Joel]

Good discussion participants, let me first introduce myself. My name is Joel and I am a Jew living in Finland. I want to thank especially Bilal for providing many interesting references to Middle Eastern history and for sharing his personal experiences. I also want to comment on two of the discussed issues: the legal status of Gaza and The West Bank, and the claimed genocide of Palestinians.

I just read an article, by a lawyer from New York, David Storbin, who argued quite convincingly that the legal question is disputable to say the least:

...

CONCLUSION


Thus, under no circumstances can one legally argue that the land is occupied. West Bank and Gaza either belong to Israel based on the League's Mandate or past sovereignty of Jews over the land. Or in the alternative, there are two conflicting claims and the status of land is disputed. For this reason, in March 1994, U.S. Ambassador to the UN Madeleine Albright stated: "We simply do not support the description of the territories occupied by Israel in the 1967 War as occupied Palestinian territory." (15)

- Legal Status of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, David Storbin

He addresses many of the resolutions quoted in this discussion, so I would say it is worth a read.

Regarding the claimed genocide of Palestinians, I wonder if someone could provide a reliable source of how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelies in recent years? I recall an NGO presenting a figure close to 3000 after the year 2000 (including the security obstacle). Considering that 'genocide' is easily associated with the happenings in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, where millions of people where slaughtered, I find it very misleading to speak about genocide or ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians today. Even if such selection of words no doubt has a media value, I would hope it would not be used to prevent an escalation of the conflict.

 

[stoned]

you are right klusener, however zionists will tell you that Palestine area was depopulated and no one lived there except few sheep.
after WW2 palestine was flooded with jews from around the world, and they simply stole that land from arabs.

 

[russ_watters]

There is a lot of rhetoric flying around in this thread and its gone a long way from where it started. I have just one question:

When was the country of "Palestine" founded?

 

[loseyourname]

They attacked Israel because the land that they had been living in for many years had been taken away and they had a moral right as humans to defend it. If someone came to your house and told you that you had to leave because their Holy book says that Sid_galt's house is their house, would you leave without a fight?

I thought it was the UN that created the state of Israel, not a holy book.

 

[stoned]

When was the country of "Palestine" founded?

there were people living there hundred of thousands of them making living and they were peacfull.technically palestine did not exist as a state but that does not mean you can just move there and take their land.
it is simple as 2+2 = 4, jews came and trouble began.

 

[Informal Logic]

There are more than 70 UN resolutions ask Israel to stop building settlements, to let the refugees to return and to withdraw from WB and Gaza, additionally, USA used the VETO 79 times to protect the Israeli crimes in UN.

Why UN can not force Israel to respect these resolutions and to solve the problem as they did with Iraq and Yugoslavia?

The answer: because USA rejects completely to let the UN to make any pressure on Israel. Therefore, the reason that the conflict continue for decades is the American policy who give Israel all possible support to bomb their neighbors and to annihilate the Palestinian in the sake of ‘’Biblical Pure Jews state’’.

In fact this American double standard...

You can go back and forth on topics such as this forever. But this one point, that the U.S. is biased in favor of Israel, because of Christian/Bible beliefs. Can anyone tell me this is not true? I don't care whether you think it is right. Just prove to me that it is not true. Peace cannot be achieved this way.

 

[russ_watters]

You can go back and forth on topics such as this forever. But this one point, that the U.S. is biased in favor of Israel, because of Christian/Bible beliefs. Can anyone tell me this is not true?

It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:

1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

 

[russ_watters]

...technically palestine did not exist as a state...

Good - so the first independent (ie, not part of a larger empire such as the British or Ottoman), modern (in the past few thousand years) country to exist on that land is Israel. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Glad we have that straight.

Follow-up question:

Was there ever an attempt by anyone to create a country called "Palestine"?

 

[stoned]

2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

you must be kidding as to believing that mossad is not involved in terrorist activity ?
by the way how do you call killing kids on the streets and demolishing homes ? that is TERRORISM.

 

[Informal Logic]

It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:

1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.

 

[sid_galt]

What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.

It is you who have claimed that the US is biased towards Israel because of Judeo-Christian beliefs. The burden of proof lies on you.

 

[russ_watters]

you must be kidding as to believing that mossad is not involved in terrorist activity ?
by the way how do you call killing kids on the streets and demolishing homes ? that is TERRORISM.

Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to.

What you state is your justification (why you think it is right) for US bias (and both are arguable), but you do not provide proof that the US is NOT biased toward Israel on bases of Judo-Christianity beliefs. No one can prove this isn't the case, because it is the basis. And the resulting bias is why people don't like the US.

Besides the burden of proof thing already posted, the US isn't the only Christian country in the world.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/225tpziw.asp is a good article with another good reason, and a little bit of my #1.

 

[loseyourname]

So the US is biased in favor of Israel and all of the arab nations in the middle east are biased against Israel. Whoever you think is more at fault just shows your bias. For the most part, all nations align themselves at this point with other nations that are part of the same civilization.

 

[Informal Logic]

The first observation in regard to this thread is that it focuses on one incident in a chain of incidents in the past, and that will similarly occur in the future. Nothing against Bilal or the person this thread is in reference to, but all the time and energy on this one incident tends to muddle the real issues. We can begin by looking at various historic events, decision makers, and foreign policy/goals at different times and how the Palestinian/Israeli conflict has evolved.

For example, the argument that the US supports Israel because of the Holocaust is illogical. Who perpetrated the genocide? It wasn’t the US. Why did the US become a champion of Israel, and why has the US retained responsibility for preservation of Israel the way it has? Is it to deal with a displaced people? If so, does a country need to be formed, and why does it need to be formed in the Holy Land? After all, Arabs didn’t perpetrate the genocide either. We can begin with the US President at that time, which was Harry S. Truman. There are many publications on the topic, for example the book:

Harry S. Truman and the Founding of Israel
by Michael T. Benson

Benson's book articulates exactly how Truman's deep religious convictions guided--even determined--the U.S. policy toward Israel, leading to the official recognition of its independence. Without that recognition, the Nation of Israel might not have lasted a week--let alone 50 years. Truman was willing to go against the current of his most trusted foreign policy advisers, who were absolutely opposed to the establishment of a Jewish state in the Middle East. These advisers argued that however humanitarian a Jewish homeland might seem, such a proposition posed a real risk to American interests in the Near East and to United States national security in the late 1940s. Despite their continued opposition, Truman stood his ground on his pro-Israel outlook, which was an outgrowth of the president’s religious upbringing and his familiarity with the Bible.

While a need for a base in the Middle East has also been a factor in US foreign policy, the Judo-Christian beliefs have been the prevailing, underlying basis for US creation and continued support of Israel. Why hasn’t the US developed better alliances/bases with Arab countries? Could there be a resistance by Arab nations of Western imperialism, culture, and religion? Could there be more connection felt between Christians with Judaism? Or worse, could there be anti-Muslim sentiment created by special interests (religious), the media, etc.?

You can read the reviews by right-wing Christians about Benson’s book, and see current support of political leaders and policy based on religious beliefs in support of Israel. In fact, many Christians make monetary contributions directly to Israel, for example to rebuild the Temple Mount per Biblical prophecy. Between this and a significant Jewish constituency in the US, if the general secular population in the US understood how much of their tax dollars have gone toward aid to Israel, or could make the connection between the US bias and terrorism, I wonder how much support there would be.

The bottom line is there is a bias. It is about protecting oil, but on US terms, which is based in large part on religious premises. It is this bias that has changed a geographical conflict into a religious conflict. It is a bias that prevents peace in the Middle East, and causes these people to feel hatred toward the US. It is the cause of terrorism.

Aside from being in denial if you don't believe Christianity in the US plays a large role in this conflict, why are you all consumed with debate about a single incident like this? You are looking at a tree and not seeing the forest.

 

[stoned]

Perhaps you should look into the definition of the word. It isn't a word you can arbitrarily attach to whatever you feel like attaching it to.

Oh ! I see where you going with this. Terrorists are only arabs, jews are the innocent victims right ? you know what you can "educate " naive young people here in America but I'm not young and not naive.
i can tell you that first terrorist in M.East were actually Jews they started all of it. In years after WW2 most of terror acts were perpertated by newly arrived jews and they were affiliated into Stern Gang,Irgun Zvai Leumi,Haganah.They terrorized not only palestinians but British,Turkish diplomats and soldiers. To gain internationnal compation ( again ) and blame arabs they bombed SS Patria ship which had arrived in Haifa with jewish refuges from Europe.In that inncident almost 300 their own people died .
Of course now you going to accuse me of anti semitism because I'm telling the truth right ? by the way Palestinians are semitic as much as Jews are so how can I be anti-semitic?

 

[Bilal]

Dear sid_galt,

No need to waste a lot of time to realize that the previous link is Zionist propaganda. Just read such sentences to see the way of writing indicate that the authors work hard to defend Israel, and their views are similar to the right Zionist wing. Usually international and unbiased sources do not use such language:

Example:

((Josef Goebbels, the infamous propaganda minister of the Nazis, had it right. Just tell people big lies often enough and they will believe them. The Arabs have learned that lesson well. They have swayed world opinion by endlessly repeating myths and lies that have no basis in fact. ))

Their sources:

http://www.think- israel.org/background.html

PEACE IS POSSIBLE BETWEEN ISHMAEL AND ISRAEL
ACCORDING TO THE KORAN by Dr. Asher Eder

http://web.israelinsider.com/home.htm
Israel insider- Israel's daily newsmagazine

Arutz Sheva - IsraelNationalNews.com
Who Are the Palestinians? by Yashiko Sagamori November 25, 2002

Do you think I am silly person who do not know that those sources are owned by extremist Zionist wing?

I provided links for UN and international organization, while you want me to get the information about my country from people believe that the ‘’Good Palestinian is only the dead Palestinian?). It is the same as to get information about Holocaust from NAZI sources.

Bilal, first of all, you provide no evidence that the second link is Zionist propaganda.

Secondly, what I quoted from that site is a fact. The Arab League of Nations attacked Israel first.

 

[Informal Logic]

http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/001/225tpziw.asp is a good article with another good reason, and a little bit of my #1.

First, Israel did not build a nation on their own the way the US was built. Israel would not exist without US financial aid or military protection. What this article does convey is my very point about bias due in part to a large Jewish constituency in the US, but American bias also comes from propaganda such as this article.

Israel needs to stop pushing the envelope with regard to borders (and stop playing the "poor little Israel" card on this) and needs to negotiate a sincere, fair settlement. The US needs to end it's dependence on oil and stop meddling in Middle East affairs. The Christians in the US need to stay out of politics across the board, including the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. And the Arabs need to stop perpetuating an uncivilized image of bickering even among themselves.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Joel,

Welcome to this discussion ….

Position of WB and Gaza:

- Suppose that WB and Gaza is not ‘’complete ‘’ occupied territories (according to UN resolutions), so what the fate of people who live in these lands for centuries? Is that justify to force the Palestinian to live as slaves under the occupation and to give their lands and resources to ‘’new Jews immigrants’’?

- If Israel wants WB and Gaza, then they should give the nationality for the nation who lives in these lands since centuries and to establish one democratic State with equal rights for different religions and communities?

- The problem they do not need to give equal rights to all people who live in Holy Land because they want only Jews State, in the same time they do not want to let the Palestinian to survive as free human in their own country , because they need the ‘’great Israel’’. May be they wait for ‘’final solution’’?

Genocide of Palestinians

Around 250000 Palestinian (Palestinain sources) were murdered and 6 Millions are living in refugees’ camps (largest refugees’ community in the world) since 1948 under miserable conditions.

I think the game of numbers is not wise way. Otherwise, how many Israeli are killed by what called ‘’terrorism’’? According to the Israeli army; 21000 Jews are killed in Palestine since 1897 (militants and Civilians), while 25000 Israeli are killed by car accidents since 1948. Therefore, Hamas and other Palestinian groups are doing fun comparing with what NAZI did to Jews.

The difference between Palestinian tragedy and other tragedies in this world:

1- For the first time in modern history, another nation who live ,since centuries, on his homeland is displaced by another people by the support of all great countries (e.g. USA, USSR, UK, France ...). This “displaced” nation forced to loose its country, culture, heritage to another nation without any moral or logical reasons. Just because it is fit with interest of some imperialist countries or compensation for NAZI crimes, which have nothing to do with Palestinian.

2- Palestinian are facings new tactic of ‘’ethic cleansing’’ called: ‘’slow annihilation’’. Israel destroyed their towns, changed the names of all geographical sites, stole their traditional food, music, clothes … etc. Additionally, they destroyed all the historical sites of the Palestinian and they build huge settlements, changing the geography and destroy the history of the land.

3- Palestinian are living as hostages, in suitable time ‘’e.g. regional war’’, Israel will not spare any Palestinian. The only reason they do not starts to annihilate the Palestinian now is the public opinion in the world and the response of nations of ME.

4- Israel is the only country in the world without border. For example, they issued law in 1981 considering Syrian Golan Heights as Israeli land , beside that many Jews still believe that most of ME should be part of ‘’Promised Land’’ : from Iraq till Egypt.

Good discussion participants, let me first introduce myself. My name is Joel and I am a Jew living in Finland. I want to thank especially Bilal for providing many interesting references to Middle Eastern history and for sharing his personal experiences. I also want to comment on two of the discussed issues: the legal status of Gaza and The West Bank, and the claimed genocide of Palestinians.

I just read an article, by a lawyer from New York, David Storbin, who argued quite convincingly that the legal question is disputable to say the least:



- Legal Status of West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, David Storbin

He addresses many of the resolutions quoted in this discussion, so I would say it is worth a read.

Regarding the claimed genocide of Palestinians, I wonder if someone could provide a reliable source of how many Palestinians have been killed by Israelies in recent years? I recall an NGO presenting a figure close to 3000 after the year 2000 (including the security obstacle). Considering that 'genocide' is easily associated with the happenings in Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, where millions of people where slaughtered, I find it very misleading to speak about genocide or ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians today. Even if such selection of words no doubt has a media value, I would hope it would not be used to prevent an escalation of the conflict.

 

[Bilal]

When was the country of "Germany" founded?

Germany was separated provinces till the 19th century. Before 160 years, The German Union was established.

Is that means, German as nation was not exist till 160 years ago? Of course not, German exist since thousands of years in their homeland, but for many reasons, the decided to call themselves as one nation (Germany). Even province of Prussia (origin of Germany) is part of Poland today and its people still German.

Italy was also created for the first time in 19the century. Is that means no Italian exist before that, or they came from Mars? Of course Italian are living in their homeland since long time before they decided to create Italy and its nation.

It is the same applicable for most of world countries … nations do not change, but they divide or unite to create new ‘’political names for their nations and countries’’.

Palestine was called “Southern Syria’’. It was part from Great Syria for centuries (Ottoman Empire). The region called ‘’Bilad Ash-sham = Land of Sham” since Roman era. After 1WW, France and UK decided to divide great Syria into Palestine, Jordan (Southern great Syria) - Lebanon and Syrian (North of great Syria).

Before that, Palestine used to be divided into three provinces within great Syria: ‘’Province of Jerusalem, Nablus and Beirut.

Call it what you want ‘’Palestine, Moonland, MarsLand ..’’ this will never change the fact that people are living in that land since 7000 years and they never stole this land from other nations. Jews as many nations live in part in Palestine before more than 2000 years, but they were destroyed by Roman and then by crusaders … it is the way how the history of any nation going.

There is a lot of rhetoric flying around in this thread and its gone a long way from where it started. I have just one question:

When was the country of "Palestine" founded?

 

[Bilal]

UN recognised Israel in 1948, but the Zionism started in 1897 aims to create Jews homeland in Uganda, Palestine or Argentina ... then they decided to chose Palestine , especially after UK promised to assists them if they succeed to occupy it.

After the Holocaust in 2WW, Jews got a lot sympathy among western, nations, so they decided to support certain of Israel in part of Palestine support of great countries in that time (USA, USSR, France and UK).

I thought it was the UN that created the state of Israel, not a holy book.

 

[Bilal]

1. Palestinain have nothing to do with the Jews in WWII.
2. How terrorism started in ME (I think we discussed this topic in details , but you are not going to make up your mind): Please read about Zionists movement : Irgun & Lihi in 40s and Kahana Chai & Kach from 80s till now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism

It isn't true. The US is biased toward Israel for two reasons:

1. The persecution (genocide) of the Jews in WWII.
2. The fact that currently, one side engages in terrorism and the other does not.

 

[Bilal]

Dear Informal Logic,

I understand your point. In fact I started this thread thinking that people care to read the emails of Rachel Corrie. She was American eyewitness who did not hate Jews or Israel. I think they will realize the miserable conditions of Palestinian who suffering from ''State Terrorism" of Israel. Unfortunately, as usual, the discussion shifted to other topics related to root of the conflict.

The first observation in regard to this thread is that it focuses on one incident in a chain of incidents in the past, and that will similarly occur in the future...

 

[russ_watters]

When was the country of "Germany" founded?

Germany was separated provinces till the 19th century. Before 160 years, The German Union was established.

The point is, Germany exists. No such country as "Palestine" has ever existed. Practically, its a little difficult for a country that doesn't exist to make a legitimate land ownership claim. Despite that, Israel is offering land for its creation. Meanwhile, the terrorism continues.

Again, there have been few conflicts in human history as straightforwardly black and white - right and wrong.

"Palestine" exists today as simply a loose collection of terrorist organizations and a powerless, pointless in-name-only government.

 

[russ_watters]

Israel needs to stop pushing the envelope with regard to borders...

Israel has never once done such a thing. All their occupied territories were won in defensive wars.

(and stop playing the "poor little Israel" card on this)

There is no such card. We are well aware that the Israelis are quite powerful. But that doesn't change why we support them - just how much actual aid we should give.

The problem with reducing our aid is that it also reduces our influence. I don't understand why people don't see it, but our aid provides us with the leash by which we keep Israel under control. The simplest, clearest example of this is the Patriot missile batteries in the first Gulf War. But Bush II has also been demanding of Israel. His influence has had an impact on the current situation and is a large part of the reason why Israel is making real, unilateral steps to try to end the conflict (though yes, Arafat's death had a bigger impact).

...and needs to negotiate a sincere, fair settlement.

With who? Based on what would such negotiations have any legitimacy? The terrorists continue to refuse to negotiate despite Israle's unprecidented unilateral concessions. The Israelis are showing truly remarkable courage and restraint.

The US needs to end it's dependence on oil...

Oh, simple as that?

and stop meddling in Middle East affairs.

Like it or not, the US is the world's policeman. And there is crime in progress in the ME that we need to deal with.

The Christians in the US need to stay out of politics across the board...

What?!? Christians shouldn't be allowed to be citizens?! What are you talking about?

 

[Yonoz]

How terrorism started in ME (I think we discussed this topic in details , but you are not going to make up your mind): Please read about Zionists movement : Irgun & Lihi in 40s and Kahana Chai & Kach from 80s till now

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Kahane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahanism

Whereas all of your aforementioned groups and the despicable Meir Kahane were considered overly extreme by most of the Jewish population in Palestine and later by the State of Israel (information leading to the capture of some of the pre-independence groups' members was given to the British forces by other Jewish organisations, and Kahane's Party was declared illegal by the Israeli Knesset & Supreme court and its activists are largely despised in today's Israeli society), Palestinian terrorism has always been, and still is, accepted as legitimate by Palestinians and Arabs world-wide, and is taught to Palestinian children in the PA's schools and summer camps.
If you're looking for the "origin" of the violent conflict, if it can be even defined, maybe you should read up on Haj Amin al-Husayni.
[edit] There is little information in Wiki about those years, but here's a short section about violence long before any of the groups you named: Joseph Trumpeldor - Death and remembrance and another one: Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920

 

[Joel]

Suppose that WB and Gaza is not ??complete ?? occupied territories (according to UN resolutions), so what the fate of people who live in these lands for centuries? Is that justify to force the Palestinian to live as slaves under the occupation and to give their lands and resources to ??new Jews immigrants?

If Israel wants WB and Gaza, then they should give the nationality for the nation who lives in these lands since centuries and to establish one democratic State with equal rights for different religions and communities?

The problem they do not need to give equal rights to all people who live in Holy Land because they want only Jews State, in the same time they do not want to let the Palestinian to survive as free human in their own country , because they need the ??great Israel??. May be they wait for ??final solution?

If the WB and Gaze are not illegally occupied territories, then I see two parties claiming they have the moral right to rule the areas. Considering that both Jews and Palestinians have lived in the area (entire Israel) during the course of history and both have religious reasons to call the land Holy, I find it very difficult to say who has the moral high ground.

Another way to determine who should rule the areas is by pure power struggle, which has been the case in all the wars between Israel and the Arab nations. Israel was left with control over WB and Gaza after they obtained them in the war of 1967 and the Arab nations failed to re-obtain them in the war of 1973.

But no legal, moral or power political claim to any area is by itself enough to secure its stability and later, 'human developmen'*, as surely can bee seen from numerous historical examples. I do not know what is enough, but I think a combination of increased wealth, security from the rule of law and the ability to express one self through democratic institutions may provide a better future for Jews and Palestinians alike, in Gaza, WB and elsewhere. Weather this is better done by giving Palestinians equal rights with Jews or by withdrawing from the settlements and establishing a Palestinians state will probably depend on how important religion will be for both sides and how the attitudes against Jews in other Arabian countries develop. Maybe the current plan of withdrawal and two states is for the better?

I must also ask you, who is 'they'? Are you referring to the government of Israel and the policy of Sharon, a particular party's agenda, or some other particular group? I am asking, because one of the most persistent myths about Jews is the belief that a Jewish or Zionist conspiracy exists to take over the world. **

*Human development combines socio-economic development, cultural change and democratization into a single, measurable concept. It is based on Amartya Sen's economic theories and is currently measured yearly by UNDP. http://hdr.undp.org/reports/

**See this case study of Antisemitism in Swedish public discourse for a background of the various myths associated with Antisemitism. http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2001-2/bachner.htm The article is based on Henrik Bachner's doctoral thesis in History of Ideas at Lund university.

Genocide of Palestinians

Around 250000 Palestinian (Palestinain sources) were murdered and 6 Millions are living in refugees? camps (largest refugees? community in the world) since 1948 under miserable conditions.

Thank you for the numbers. Even if it is a palestinian source, could you name it or provide a link if it exists on the internet?

Here is the source I remembered: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/Palestinian_killed_fact_sheet.htm

I think the game of numbers is not wise way. Otherwise, how many Israeli are killed by what called ??terrorism? According to the Israeli army; 21000 Jews are killed in Palestine since 1897 (militants and Civilians), while 25000 Israeli are killed by car accidents since 1948. Therefore, Hamas and other Palestinian groups are doing fun comparing with what NAZI did to Jews.

There is a saying, "Lies, dammed lies, and statistics" and I agree very much that the game of numbers is not wise. However, I find it important for everyone to be aware of the best estimations we have about how many have died and in what circumstances. If used properly, statistics can also be a valuable tool establish what has happened and will happen, wouldn't you say?

The difference between Palestinian tragedy and other tragedies in this world:

I fancy myself with the belief that I'm not entirely unaware of the Palestinian tragedy. However, as Russ pointed out, there exists a plan to establish a Palestinian state. When and how it will become a reality is not only dependant on Israel, but also on the functioning of the Palestinian authority. Just like you have the right to ask for a safe place to live in, so has the Israelis now.

 

[Bilal]

-Jews settlers teaching their kids also how to kill the Palestinian in summer camps which organized by Israeli government annually.

http://www.world-crisis.com/images/uploads/israeli_settlers_1.jpg

- Concerning the collaboration between Mufti Husiani and Nazi, here also from the same source about the Zionists leaders and NAZI. Both NAZI and Zionism agree to kick out the Jews of Europe to Palestine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avraham_Stern

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

((Contact with Nazi authorities
In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.))

- Quotes of David Ben-Gurion, first Israeli PM:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

((If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel." David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

Whereas all of your aforementioned groups and the despicable Meir Kahane were considered overly extreme by most of the Jewish population in Palestine and later by the State of Israel (information leading to the capture of some of the pre-independence groups' members was given to the British forces by other Jewish organisations, and Kahane's Party was declared illegal by the Israeli Knesset & Supreme court and its activists are largely despised in today's Israeli society), Palestinian terrorism has always been, and still is, accepted as legitimate by Palestinians and Arabs world-wide, and is taught to Palestinian children in the PA's schools and summer camps.
If you're looking for the "origin" of the violent conflict, if it can be even defined, maybe you should read up on Haj Amin al-Husayni.
[edit] There is little information in Wiki about those years, but here's a short section about violence long before any of the groups you named: Joseph Trumpeldor - Death and remembrance and another one: Jerusalem pogrom of April 1920

 

[Bilal]

Dear Joel,

I try to compromise by accepting the reality and to be pragmatic. Unfortunately this seems not working with Zionism. Therefore, you will never going to admit what you cause to Palestinian nation.

My question: If you were Palestinian, what you will do?

Before you answer this question read carefully what the Zionist leaders answered:

David Ben-Gurion: leader of independent of Israel and first PM:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

(("Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?" (David Ben-Gurion quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress.))

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.))


Ehud Barak:

((If I were Palestinian , I would be terrorist))

 

[Bilal]

Zionist leaders, who created Israel in 1948, admitted that they stole my country and they built Zionist settlements after annihilation of 530 Palestinian towns, so what I have to prove more?

We can not tell 5 millions Jews to leave Palestine…, but also we need peaceful solution:

- One democratic State for all religions, so Jews, Christian, Muslims, Arab ..etc live in one country with equal rights.
- Creation of Jews State only in Jews areas, and let the others to create their Democratic State for the rest of people, including those Jews who willing to live in peace with Palestinian.

 

[Hurkyl]

Zionist leaders, who created Israel in 1948, admitted that they stole my country

I think you need to pay attention to the context. It seems crystal clear to me that in the quote, David Ben-Gurion is describing his perception of how Arabs view the situation. I wouldn't've have even thought that one might interpret it differently until I saw that you did.