- #36
Yonoz
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I suggest you watch the movie http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7332726655958371305" .
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The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shura" is far from democracy. It was a coup d'etat, the rebels won and awarded themselves the final seal of approval ("kosher"):devious_ said:Read about "shura" for example.
This coup is why you have Shi'a and Sunni today, which would make it a failed democracy if it were one in the first place.None of these caliphs or rulers was chosen by shura; all grasped power by inheritance or by the sword. The Muslim clergy counselled submission to rulers as long as they were Muslims; however, the clergy also stressed the duty of the ruler to rule by shura. They based this recommendation on these two passages from the Qur'an:
* "...So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them [the believers] upon the conduct of affairs." (3:159)
This verse suggests that shura is obligatory. The context of this verse makes a direct reference to those (Muslims) who disobeyed the Muhammad. Therefore it is clear that ordinary, fallible Muslims should be consulted.
* "those who conduct their affairs by counsel [are praised]"(43:38).
This second suggests that shura is praiseworthy but does not indicate whether or not it is mandatory. This verse also does not clarify who should be consulted. Neither of the verses clarify what subjects should be conducted through consultation (all decisions? major decisions? at the discretion of the ruler?). The verses also do not say who is to be followed in the event of a disagreement, the ruler or the shura.
In practice, most Muslim rulers were autocratic, listened only to powerful advisors and clergy, and rejected advice they did not like.
What do you want from me? All I want to do is live where I was born peacefully. I don't care if they establish a state. I don't mind giving them land - sh*t, I got hit by people while maning a Peace Now booth a few weeks ago. But I can't tell you our side, can I? You will never believe that one side - the weaker side, as terrible as it is - is playing you, lunarmansion, like a chess pawn, as leverage for political gains.lunarmansion said:Oh come on---I think that such things do not convince anyone. I think the world sympathy was originally for Palestinians, but then the Arabs got stupid and resorted to terrorism and so the world is no longer for the Palestinians as much due to the terrorist activities all around the world associated with Islam. I watch the news here. Do not tell me that the news favors them from over there. This is a never ending conflict and there is no end to arguments from both sides. You people have to see that you are the same historically and only religion and a bit of history separates you and come to terms with yourselves. Trying to prove one side right is stupid. You can come up with many arguments--both sides are in the wrong equally by now.
Please, do not shut up. Ask me, I can present you with my views. Be critical of everything - especially your media.lunarmansion said:I am really sorry Yonoz. I did not mean to take any sides at all-what is going on there is beyond rational to me right now-and it is easy to talk of a conflict from far away, comfortably from here. One of my best friends is caught in Lebanon-she goes there with her children every summer but is in the Christian enclave. I have another friend from your country here who studies Physics and believes that there should be peace with the Arabs and he is a well meaning guy. One can generalize about things but when one deals with individuals it is another story. I am sorry if I upset you-I was stupidly trying to be objective but in an irrational conflict as this one, it think it is best to just shut up.
devious_ said:The constant invasions were what caused the "screeching halt." Most notable are the Mongol invasion and the European Crusades. Even to this day, the Middle East is still being invaded and attacked.
daveb said:How about the number zero? There are numerous contributions to math alone, as shown by this site.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980422/1998042208.html"
I never said the arabs invented it. But yes, they did preserve it.lunarmansion said:Zero was invented by Hindus along with the numerals.
Again, I never said everyone in the middle east is Arab.lunarmansion said:You should read your history. Not everyone in the Middle East is Arab.
It's a little difficult to provide source quotes from a written text. Therefore, the web will have to suffice. In case you think the web is only full of erroneous sources, here are a lot more sources saying pretty much the same stuff.lunarmansion said:Get yourself a proper history book and not information off the web.
Schrodinger's Dog said:Optics were thought to be invented in the Middle East...
Mickey said:Algebra.
daveb said:How about the number zero? There are numerous contributions to math alone, as shown by this site.
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/980422/1998042208.html"
daveb said:I never said the arabs invented it. But yes, they did preserve it.
Ok this one actually claims zero was invented by arabs, so I guess there must be some disagreement about this even in universities.
russ_watters said:One more time: Is a compromise feasible here?
You guys are all saying the same thing (props to you, though, for having the courage to explicitly state that the point would be to find a compromse rather than just backhanding it) but ignoring the fact that Bin Laden does not want and will not accept a compromise. All this crap about understanding his position and seeing if he has a point is just mental masturbation. It is utterly useless/pointless.
mbrmbrg said:This whole "name one such invention" is really getting ridiculous. Look, while Europe was sitting around in the dark/middle ages, the Islamic Empire was experiencing a golden age. Astronomy. Philosophy. Medicine. Poetry.
Did you never learn about what happened when the two civilizations met (for lack of a better term) through the crusades?
For crying out loud, one of the things the crusaders were so taken by were PILLOWS! Not to mention unspoiled food...
Point being: the heck with what Moslems did/did not invent per se.
It may be over, but they had a golden age.
Read up on it, instead of quibbling over zero (although it is one of the greatest inventions of all times [see "Nothing Counts" by Isaac Asimov]).
I appreciate you taking the time to give your critique on the report; but surely you are not contesting its relevance of the report to the topic at hand with your arguments? Of course you don't intentionally send out a TV crew to record such injustices taking place; and as the report enplaned, you don't even let foreign reporters near such situations and systematically shelve what footage is caught by Israeli reporters. Sure that isn't a conspiracy; it is public relations efforts targeted at minimizing the injustices perpetrated by Israel though the occupation of Palestine while maximizing the exposure of the injustices perpetrated on Israel. Our ability to to continue purpotrarting such wrongs on a population is "freedom and way of life" which those who benift most from such action are most determined to protect.Yonoz said:The occupation brings much injustice. There are bad Israelis and good Israelis. There are soldiers with disregard for lives, and there are commanders that would rather risk the target's family members more than their soldiers. But it's my opinion that the report is a populist spin of a disturbing report on a tragedy - not a conspiracy. Noone is stupid enough to send a TV crew to the mission and briefings if they thought the arrest will end anywhere near the way it unfolded.
I agree. Let's get back to the OP question. If someone wants to debate whether or not the Arab world made such contributions, feel free to start a thread about such.mbrmbrg said:This whole "name one such invention" is really getting ridiculous.
For some odd reason, I would have to disagree with this. If there were an actual "compromise" I have a feeling the things the US would get would far outweigh the things he would get. I would be more apt to say that trying to compromise is probably pretty useless.Bystander said:"Compromise" with bin Laden is like "compromise" with Charles Manson --- not particularly useful.
mbrmbrg said:HOWEVER. I refuse to accept your "Sure, if you want to call it that" about the whole friggin' concept of an Islamic golden age. Are you really wanting to take on standard history's lable of an era spanning 500 yrs (750-1200 CE)? Or are you just so appallingly ignorant that you don't have a clue what you're taking on?
pcorbett said:Diophantus wrote of Arithmetica a millenium before al Muhammad ibn Musa al-Kwarizmi was born.
pcorbett said:The term optics is the title subject of a fourth century BCE Euclid treatise.
Zero
Zero was invented by the Hindu mathematicians Aryabhata and Varamihara in India around or shortly after the year 520 A.D.
pcorbett said:"Golden age" is a value-laiden term in the field, and I'm pretty much against the label on general principle. Take it or leave it.
lunarmansion said:Indians invented the zero and the so called arabic numerals-Sanskrit professor, Michael Witzel an old German Orientalist at Harvard told me so, and he should know--case closed.
Schrodinger's Dog said:Using camels against horses is one of them, Horses fear camels it's the smell, they realized it and perfected tactics to drive Knights back. Instead of sending in cavalry.