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Dual Op Amp
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simple question, why do atoms seek to have eight valence electrons?
It is, as I understand it, the quasi-wave equation for a little piece of matter (particle) which was the first major attempt to explain the strange quantum nuances that arose in the laboratories across the world at the beginning of the twentieth century. The equation is "good enough" to describe stationary configurations, i.e. your valence electrons, though, in a situation that complicated, there is no technique to exactly solve it that I know of.Dual Op Amp said:What's the Schrodinger equasion?
Dual Op Amp said:simple question, why do atoms seek to have eight valence electrons?
turin said:If you want to get picky, then you can ask about particular atoms. Of course the 8 electron rule is not completely general. I doubt that the original question was about the number 8 so much as it was about why some specific number (2, 8, 18, etc.).
turin said:I don't get it. Are you saying that hydrogen and oxygen are not atoms when they form a water molecule? Yes, I think that is being picky (excessively technical). The word, "atom," comes roughly from the Greek "indivisible." I don't know about anyone else, but when I think of an atom of matter, I think of the nucleas. If that is not technically correct, then shame on me.
I will concede with you on this. I don't want to argue.ZapperZ said:I ... tend to think this whole discussion is rather moot until the person who originally posted this question explains further.
Observe post #2.Dual Op Amp said:Yes, but why?
Okay, now I'm confused.two electrons of opposite spin have an energy lower than two electrons of opposite spin. In the case of 8 electrons in an orbital, the electrons pair up in opposite spins. The reason for 2, then 8, then 18 electrons in filled shells is the following (I was waiting for someone else to get started on this point), is the following.
In an atom of the variety, is the angular momentum, is the spin and is the total angular momentum Now , so for an atom , and is less than in general, so for ,, . Now there are angular momentum states, this is the basis behind the number if states in a closed shell.
Dr Transport said:(you guys are making me reach way, way back into my atomic physics coursework days...)
Dr Transport said:don't remember, i said i had to reach way back into my atomic physics courses... if memory serves me correctly, the 4s state has a lower energy than a 3d.
Dr Transport said:I'm an old guy, been outta school way too long, enlighten us o' wise one...
no.. an atom with 8 protons wouldn't have 8 valence electrons...it would have six...ZapperZ said:Unfortunately, short of being a psychic, one doesn't know that. It is compounded by the fact that the original question is rather terse, and no references or sources were cited to where this "eight electrons" rule was found.
In fact, the ONLY atom that would want "eight electrons" in its valence shell is an atom with eight protons! This is only one particular atom. [Remember, the question asked about ATOMS, not molecules, not atoms in a solid state configuration, etc... or am I being "picky" again?] So there isn't even any notion of generalities here.
Dual Op Amp said:I agree with Balkan, the first orbital must be filled with only two electrons. Then, the final shell is filled with six electrons. The atom will try to fill the final orbit with eight electrons, even if it makes it an ion. For some reason, eight electrons causes a very stable atom.
Dual Op Amp said:Well, first thing I still don't understand this, that's why I'm asking. I'm talking about the covelent bonding rule. For example the molecule of oxygen shares a double bond with another oxygen atom (O2). The oxygen atom has six valence electrons, and seeks to have eight. The atoms share two electrons, and for a brief moment one of them own all eight valence electrons. This is because one oxygen atom donates an electron, and so does the other. The two electrons orbit around the two atoms. Okay, so the oxygen has six, donates one, and now has five.
When the two electrons orbit around it, it has seven valence electrons. That's not suitable. There's where the double bond come's in. Actually, each oxygen atom donates two valence electrons. So, it now has four valence electrons. The four valence electrons orbit the oxygen atoms. For a very brief moment one atom has it's eight valence electrons. This is proven in every almost every molecule. Water, methane, ozone, oxygen. If you calculate the valence electrons, it always adds to eight.
Dual Op Amp said:Oxygen, with six valence electrons, has two hydrogen atoms bonded to it. This adds up to eight. Type in chemical bond in your search engine, an you'll find out this rule is every where.
ZapperZ said:Oy vey!
If you agree with Balkan, then the valence shell is 6 electrons, which is the filling of the p orbital. This clearly contradicts your illusion of all atoms wanting 8 valence electrons. Your assertion that the atom will try to fill the "final orbit" (??) with EIGHT (count 'em) electrons, "even if it makes an ion" is ridiculous. What "orbit" is this, since the NEXT orbital is the d-shell?Show me where you can easily find an ion with -8e.
Zz.