Why does the U.S. continue to provide military aid to Israel?

[zomgwtf]

So in the other thread which has now been locked for being dragged off topic continuously (I guess it was easier to just keep deleting posts and then lock it altogether than to ask people to stop posting that particular information) I've decided to start a new thread.

Specifically dealing with US aid to Israel.

Here's the latest report I can find:
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf
Printed in December.

The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs uses this report to generate a table of values making it easier to go through the data but Evo has said this is not a mainstream source, so I'm not going to bother posting it anyone interested can look it up themselves.

From the usaid.gov website I found this report from 1994:
http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PCAAA469.pdf
The summary states:

Israel is not economically self-sufficient,
and relies on foreign assistance and
borrowmg to maintain its ecoromy.

At this time they were receiving around 1.2 billion dollars per year for Economic Grants since 1985.

However, in recent times, Israels economy has been thriving, in my opinion, and they have been receiving less, and less money from USA for their Economy. Nearly 100% of loans/grants were given to Israel for military purposes. This is usually done through 'buying credits' for American equipment/technology. (in 2008 0$ were given in Economic loans/grants)

So this begs the question, if the Israeli economy is now self-sufficient and can run without so much foreign aid why does America continue to pour the largest amount of foreign aid it gives into Israels military? Would Israel be able to continue being a powerful military prescence in the Middle East without the American support? Does this support in Israeli military from the American government show that America supports Israeli military policies?
I guess the most important question is: Does it seem to you like America is using Israel as an 'outpost' in the Middle East and is this a negative thing?(especially taking into account the recent boarding of merchant ships... which in my mind were completely legal and authorized but most developed nations disagree with that)

I can think of many more questions but those are just a few to start a discussion... hopefully one which doesn't end up locked. If my sources aren't good enough for the forums then I truly do not know what is good enough to be cited here.

 

[Cyrus]

However, in recent times, Israels economy has been thriving, in my opinion, and they have been receiving less, and less money from USA for their Economy. Nearly 100% of loans/grants were given to Israel for military purposes. This is usually done through 'buying credits' for American equipment/technology. (in 2008 0$ were given in Economic loans/grants)

My question to you is: military hard ware is expensive - extremely expensive. How does the military funding we've given them compare to some other metric, like their GDP. This will give you a better indication of the relative magnitude of military/civilian spending.

So this begs the question, if the Israeli economy is now self-sufficient and can run without so much foreign aid why does America continue to pour the largest amount of foreign aid it gives into Israels military?

Lobbyists.

Would Israel be able to continue being a powerful military prescence in the Middle East without the American support?

I have to argue, no. Google Isreali Army. You will see Apache helicopters, F-16s, M-16s, Humvee's, and many other made in USA products.

Does this support in Israeli military from the American government show that America supports Israeli military policies?

Absolutely, if you have moral and legal objections to another countries actions, you don't help arm them (and exclusively militarily, since '08 according to your data) for the past 25 years.

I guess the most important question is: Does it seem to you like America is using Israel as an 'outpost' in the Middle East and is this a negative thing?(especially taking into account the recent boarding of merchant ships... which in my mind were completely legal and authorized but most developed nations disagree with that)

Yes, the point of Israel is not like that of Iraq, which was to show democracy can work, and hopefully spread in the region. Instead, Israel is used effectively as a proxy military base for the United States.

I can think of many more questions but those are just a few to start a discussion... hopefully one which doesn't end up locked. If my sources aren't good enough for the forums then I truly do not know what is good enough to be cited here.

The question is, why isn't the United States actively talking with other Arab countries, particularly Syria, who reached out the the US but got a cold back from the Bush Administration. Blind support of Israel is not a silver bullet that will solve all the problems of the Middle East.

The better question is, what is the US and Israel doing to get rid of the corruption in Palestine (none). Until you set up a stable internal workings in Palestine, you're never going to have any chance of peace. You can dump all the US's money into Israel and you still won't solve anything.

 

[Evo]

I'm going to tentatively allow this since obviously talking about it without knowing the extent of the military and strategic benefits the US gets makes the thread rather pointless. Was there some point? I didn't see one.

Look up US aid to Gaza. And they are not an ally.

 

[waht]

The military financial aid to Israel is a blessing to the US military-industrial complex more than it is to Israel's army. That way the armament/defense companies in the US are kept more busy, and competing for contracts instead of falling apart because of lack of demand. All the goods produced, the high-tech military hardware has to be unloaded somewhere, and tested in the field, so giving it away to a really trusted ally is beneficial for the US.

It is also clear that Israel is systematically annexing (legally and illegally) Palestinian property. Similar situation occurs in Tibet when the Han Chinese are moving in the region by the boatloads. Given enough time of maintaining the status quo, perhaps in another generation they will have more bargaining chips when claiming lands because the ingenious population became a minority.

 

[Office_Shredder]

It is also clear that Israel is systematically annexing (legally and illegally) Palestinian property. Similar situation occurs in Tibet when the Han Chinese are moving in the region by the boatloads. Given enough time of maintaining the status quo, perhaps in another generation they will have more bargaining chips when claiming lands because the ingenious population became a minority.

a) How can you possibly expect Israel to gain a majority in the Gaza strip when they forcibly removed all the settlers there?

b) What does this have to do with financial aid to Israel? If the answer to this is nothing, please don't reply (no need to derail yet another thread)

I have to argue, no. Google Isreali Army. You will see Apache helicopters, F-16s, M-16s, Humvee's, and many other made in USA products.

A lot of countries use lots of USA made products. Most places don't have the technology and manufacturing base to make all their own equipment

 

[zomgwtf]

@Cyrus. I typed up a response to what you wrote but when I clicked post the thread was no longer here, so I lost the post. :rofl:.

Anyways I went and looked up Israels GDP per capita and PPP they are just under 30k and 214billion. I think this is decent and when you look at the growth going on it makes it seem even more 'stable' (considering foreign aid into the economy went to 0 as my other source states.)

I got this data from the IMF datasets from April 2010. I'd post the source but I'm on another computer and I'm not so sure how to post the data since it's done in a graph format with no URL.

I'm not sure what this data means relative to the over 2 billion$ in foreign US aid to Israels military.

I had come to similar conclusions as you except it just brought a more pressing question. Would America use this foreign aid to try and control Israeli policy or have they already? The total amount of loans/grants given to Israel accounts for 44% of it's GDP... most of it though was 'waived' (the vast majority).

I wonder how long Israel has to continue being USAs 'puppet' government/military outpost in the middle east. Will it's recent actions put strain on the national relations between the countries? I mean I know that America comes out and 'condemns' Israeli actions calling for increases in aid and the works but will they actually take action against Israel?

 

[zomgwtf]

I'm going to tentatively allow this since obviously talking about it without knowing the extent of the military and strategic benefits the US gets makes the thread rather pointless. Was there some point? I didn't see one.

Look up US aid to Gaza. And they are not an ally.

Evo have you even been reading the sources provided?

 

[Cyrus]

A lot of countries use lots of USA made products. Most places don't have the technology and manufacturing base to make all their own equipment

Precisely.

 

[rootX]

China supports North Korea for same reason as US supports Israel, regional interests IMO.

 

[estro]

USA financial aid to Israel is based on credit (not actually money [something like: win points get prizes]) that Israel uses to buy military equipment from the USA.
This aid was a part of the peace agreements between Israel and Egypt negotiated by the USA in 1979. (See "Camp David Accords").
(Egypt granted it's own financial aid by the USA)

Israel also has "less public" agreements with the USA on the topic of military developments.
(In fashion of: Israel develops, USA pays and gets the technology too)
(In some cases USA, gives us the red light, like in the Lavi project)

To summarize things informally:
Russian political and strategical grip is in form of weak Arabic countries in the middle east.
USA has the same kind of grip in form of the strongest country in the middle east, Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Lavi#Results_of_development
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords#Terms_of_the_agreements
Oh, these sources are little bit funny, but most of formal sources are only Hebrew (can't find them in English).

 

[zomgwtf]

estro, if you want to you can head here:

http://translate.google.com/#

And past the source of the webpage that you wish to translate or the section of text or whatever.

 

[madness]

Israel is in a strategic geographic position, and America would like to have an ally next to Iran etc. Going further you might say that America has a military presence by proxy through the state of Israel.

 

[turbo]

Remember that whatever level of monetary aid the US gives Israel, it is money borrowed by the US, and we are paying interest on the debt. Also, financial aid to Israel (unlike to other countries) is given in a lump sum instead of in structured payments throughout the fiscal year, meaning that the US forgoes all the interest that might have accrued.

 

[waht]

So this begs the question, if the Israeli economy is now self-sufficient and can run without so much foreign aid why does America continue to pour the largest amount of foreign aid it gives into Israels military? Would Israel be able to continue being a powerful military prescence in the Middle East without the American support? Does this support in Israeli military from the American government show that America supports Israeli military policies?

To follow up on the first part of my previous post, if US cuts military aid to Israel, then Israel could buy military hardware from other countries - the Euro-zone, Russia perhaps or any lowest bidder. But in the end the US will lose out on stimulating its military-industry which is absolutely crucial in keeping the US military on the cutting edge, and will also lose out on projecting a significant military power at the boundary of middle east which is of great strategic importance for the US.

Does this support in Israeli military from the American government show that America supports Israeli military policies?

When it comes to national interests which is a priority for every country, or internal affairs then no.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Something I only just thought of... as an example, how much money was it worth for Israel to blow up whatever they blew up in Syria back in 2007? That's essentially unanswerable because none of us know the implications of that attack.

 

[Cyrus]

How much is it worth to have the Mossad working in our interests in a region where our intelligence routinely fails?

How good is the Mossad information they provide?

How much is it worth to have what amounts to a massive base in the heart of the Middle East, from a tactical and strategic perspective?

Have we ever used this as a base, in Gulf War I or II, or Afghanistan? Not really.

How much is it worth to have an entity which routinely assassinates targets we deem to be dangerous as well, and harries such characters as Imad Mugniyeh?

While also blowing up half an apartment building filled with civilians?

How much was it worth when the Israelis destroyed the Iraqi nuclear facility in the 80's and how much will it be worth when they do the same and worse to Iran, eventually?

I find it highly unlikely they will try to attack Iran, given the reach Iran has with its missile system.

We could build partnerships with the other Arab countries, so we don't need to back Israel.

 

[Evo]

I think it's because Israel has proven that they can be trusted not to take what we have helped them develop and not use it against us.

 

[Cyrus]

I think it's because Israel has proven that they can be trusted not to take what we have helped them develop and not use it against us.

Err...

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/u-s-jew-indicted-as-possible-israel-spy-1.265740

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

 

[Evo]

Err...

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/u-s-jew-indicted-as-possible-israel-spy-1.265740

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

An American Jew selling secrets. Not exactly the government of Israel using our weapons against us eh?

What about that American that sold a list of all of the US agents in Russia that got them all killed?

Off topic.

 

[Cyrus]

An American Jew selling secrets. Not exactly the government of Israel using our weapons against us eh?

What about that American that sold a list of all of the US agents in Russia that got them all killed?

Off topic.

The point is that the guy wasn't caught because Israel turned him to US officials in when he tried to pass them information. That doesn't speak well for them.

nRbpzFKsPYg&feature=related[/youtub...or us, as an American, thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Cyrus]

Do you know, or are you being rhetorical?

That was actually a question.

The vast majority of our human intelligence comes from Ha Mossad; Sigint is more our thing. Obviously finding examples of this is not the easiest thing in the world, but we can employ logic here. Ha Mossad has captured people such as Eichmann, whom we had an interest in seeing hanged, assassinated a number of people involved in Iraqi weapons projects, and leads intelligence for the IDF. http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/israel/mossad.htm

Thank's for that information.

You ask questions that can be partially answered by Wikipedia, so I am doubting your sincrity a bit. One example:

I strongly suggest you read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad#Suspected_activities

It was a loaded question, .

This is a bit misleading; we train for desert combat in the Negev, and it is a fairly critical regime. They are also, and have always been, a buffer between Iran and our other "friends" in the Middle east, as a last ditch given a fallen Iraq. They are as a I said, much more than a base, but also a proxy. You think this is really just for Israel's benefit?

Agree with you here.

**** happens, we blow up civilians all the time to get to targets. Granted, it's usually not a mistake when we do it, but we do it. You're free to disagree with the methods employed by the USA, UK, USSR/Russia, Israel and more, but this is not a valid argument.

Again, it was a loaded question. My point is that they knowingly use excessive force to assassinate a target. It is by no means a swat team like precision engagement (Note: there are a few cases where it is, but many where it is not).

Cite? Do you REALLY believe that if it comes down to it Israel will allow Iran to gain nuclear weapons? There is precedent with a less hostile regime that they will not. The capacity to neutralize Iranian missile threats is not inconsiderable, and the use of non-conventional weapons should not be ruled out. I realize this is a personal topic for you, but that does not change the objective reality.

Not really personal, as I don't care or like the Iranian government (despite having historical ties there). If someone were to bomb Iran, I would want it to be the United States, and no one else.

That sounds nice, but it never really seems to work out. Israel needs us to survive, and we're never going to have that on an arab or persian nation. That is the kind of mutual aid that nations thrive on, and frankly, I don't think our government has had much success dealing with Arab nations. Who shall we deal with? Mubarak of Egypt, and his oh-so-stable "democracy"? Perhaps we should deal even more with Saudi Arabia, sorry, The House of Saud, or Syria, or Lebanon?! :rofl:

Clearly, the surrounding governments are a problem. But if no one is actively working to change it, you will not have peace.

Hell man, why make friends with the list of countries Israel crushed a day after its inception, when we can be partners with Israel?

I'm not saying to be partners with them after the first war. It's been 60 years, and times have to change in terms of how we think about alliances and partnerships.

Given your later post, tarring all of Israel for the actions of one man, I suppose we can draw even sterner conclusions about Arab nations. For Persia/Iran, its leadership, and such joyful puppies as Imad Mugniyeh and Hezbollah. Same for Syria and Lebanon. Saudi Arabia and Egypt... well... you must get my point by now, or not at all. You're showing what appears to be a bit of bias here, and poorly substantiated bias.

I don't trust anything from those governments as well. Actually, I don't trust any government that isn't my own, because fundamentally another government is supposed to put its own interests first - not US interests. The problem is that this is not the actions of "one man", this is a past history of the Israeli government participating in spying on the US. They took the information, on *nuclear secrets* no less!

 

[Proton Soup]

I think it's because Israel has proven that they can be trusted not to take what we have helped them develop and not use it against us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aipac

An American Jew selling secrets. Not exactly the government of Israel using our weapons against us eh?

What about that American that sold a list of all of the US agents in Russia that got them all killed?

Off topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

 

[Proton Soup]

I think you're reaching here, in a big way.

how so?

 

[Office_Shredder]

how so?

You've cited a lobbying organization and a friendly fire styled incident during a war

 

[Proton Soup]

You've cited a lobbying organization and a friendly fire styled incident during a war

well, that's what lobbying organizations do, they lobby congressmen to give them things. and this thread is all about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee#Steiner_resignation"

Steiner resignation

In 1992, AIPAC president David Steiner was forced to resign after he was recorded boasting about his political influence in obtaining aid for Israel. Steiner also claimed that he had

met with (then Bush U.S. Secretary of State) Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear ... Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.[30]

Steiner also claimed to be "negotiating" with the incoming Clinton administration over who Clinton would appoint as Secretary of State and Secretary of the National Security Agency. Steiner stated that AIPAC had "a dozen people in [the Clinton] campaign, in the headquarters... in Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs."[30]

NY real estate developer Haim Katz told The Washington Times that he taped the conversation because "as someone Jewish, I am concerned when a small group has a disproportionate power. I think that hurts everyone, including Jews. If David Steiner wants to talk about the incredible, disproportionate clout AIPAC has, the public should know about it."[31]

as for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident#Ongoing_controversy_and_unresolved_questions":

Dean Rusk, U.S. Secretary of State at the time of the incident, wrote:

I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. Their sustained attack to disable and sink Liberty precluded an assault by accident or some trigger-happy local commander. Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous.[49]

i believe that means the official position of the US government at the time is that it wasn't an accident.

 

[Office_Shredder]

well, that's what lobbying organizations do, they lobby congressmen to give them things. and this thread is all about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee#Steiner_resignation"

But what does that have to do with not trusting Israel?

i believe that means the official position of the US government at the time is that it wasn't an accident.

At the time being the day of the attack? I'm confused. The US government performed an investigation and concluded that it was an accident. What would Israel even gain by sinking an American ship?

 

[estro]

It's hard for me to understand why you're so focused on military aid to Israel, why not discussing economic\military aid to Egypt?

I'm in personal opinion that US-Israel relations have strong roots with both sided getting what they want. While I'm not so that the US gets the same yield from Egypt, nevertheless no one has something to say about it.

It seems to me Israel is just a hot (too hot to handle maybe?) topic, and many want and like expressing their opinions toward Israel with or without any actual reason.

 

[Proton Soup]

But what does that have to do with not trusting Israel?

actually, I'm not even sure why i included the aipac link after that evo quote now. had the source of funding on my brain for some reason. in any case, if one is to wonder why we give them so much, i think it is easy to conclude that it is because they expend a lot of effort lobbying our government for it.

as for trust, why the glee from Steiner about getting a billion in aid that no one knows about? and why should i trust any group that expends so much effort lobbying my government in favor of a foreign government? if this were about the chinese, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

At the time being the day of the attack? I'm confused. The US government performed an investigation and concluded that it was an accident. What would Israel even gain by sinking an American ship?

it was later declared an accident? i would say that was diplomacy, given that the Sec. State says he still doesn't believe it was an accident.

israel "gained" us not observing what they were doing at a very sensitive time.

 

[Proton Soup]

It's hard for me to understand why you're so focused on military aid to Israel, why not discussing economic\military aid to Egypt?

I'm in personal opinion that US-Israel relations have strong roots with both sided getting what they want. While I'm not so that the US gets the same yield from Egypt, nevertheless no one has something to say about it.

It seems to me Israel is just a hot (too hot to handle maybe?) topic, and many want and like expressing their opinions toward Israel with or without any actual reason.

we provide tanks and other things to egypt and the saudis. perhaps others as well. we even have arabs working here in the US on the contracts to support that equipment. i have no idea though how much direct aid is involved vs. simply sales of equipment and support.

 

[estro]

we provide tanks and other things to egypt and the saudis. perhaps others as well. we even have arabs working here in the US on the contracts to support that equipment. i have no idea though how much direct aid is involved vs. simply sales of equipment and support.

1.3 billion $ of U.S military aid annually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Armed_Forces

 

[Char. Limit]

it was later declared an accident? i would say that was diplomacy, given that the Sec. State says he still doesn't believe it was an accident.

Does a former Secretary of State represent the U.S. Government now?

Personally, I would support Israel because we have to. If we attempted to support the Arab nations, keeping in mind the fact that we need them, they don't need us, they'd soon betray us, make our lives miserable, etc. Israel needs us to survive, and we should support the one least likely to betray us. The Arab nations, upon whom we depend but who do not depend upon us, are far more likely to betray us than Israel, who depends on us.

Also, the right wing in our country would never allow us to endorse a nation that espouses, heaven forbid, Islam! Remember that whole anti-Arab, anti-Muslim current in our right wing? They'd just filibuster.

 

[estro]

Does a former Secretary of State represent the U.S. Government now?

Personally, I would support Israel because we have to. If we attempted to support the Arab nations, keeping in mind the fact that we need them, they don't need us, they'd soon betray us, make our lives miserable, etc. Israel needs us to survive, and we should support the one least likely to betray us. The Arab nations, upon whom we depend but who do not depend upon us, are far more likely to betray us than Israel, who depends on us.

Also, the right wing in our country would never allow us to endorse a nation that espouses, heaven forbid, Islam! Remember that whole anti-Arab, anti-Muslim current in our right wing? They'd just filibuster.

I think there is another reason for US-Israel ties.
Many governments in Europe are under constant pressure by their Muslim population, and which in turn influences their policies towards Israel.
But in the US the opposite phenomena occurs, many high profile post are held by Jews, and the Jewish population make itself known.

 

[russ_watters]

Is the cost of the first Gulf War included in our "aid" to Saudia Arabia and Kuwait?

 

[vertices]

Israel needs us to survive, and we should support the one least likely to betray us.

This language makes me a bit uncomfortable. It is Holocaust tinged and appeals to emotion. I don't for a second doubt that the regimes surrounding Israel are despotic and extremely repressive, but it would be absurd to suggest that they wish to destroy Israel.

The fact of the matter it is not is any nation's interest to blindly support Israel's increasingly outrageous actions. As much as the world adores him, Barack O. stands to lose a great deal of moral credibility if he continues to tactilely support Israeli intransigence.

 

[Evo]

This language makes me a bit uncomfortable. It is Holocaust tinged and appeals to emotion. I don't for a second doubt that the regimes surrounding Israel are despotic and extremely repressive, but it would be absurd to suggest that they wish to destroy Israel.

You do know that they have said that they will not be happy until Israel ceases to exist?