Theories of Relativity: Analogon

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Neo
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Relativity Theories
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

This discussion explores analogies between thermodynamic behavior of water and concepts from relativity theory. Participants examine the implications of temperature thresholds in phase changes and the relationship between energy, matter, and wave-particle duality. The scope includes theoretical reasoning and conceptual clarification.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the behavior of volatile liquids, particularly water, can be likened to relativity theory, suggesting that temperature acts as a limit similar to the speed of light.
  • Another participant challenges this analogy, arguing that temperature is a statistical measurement and that evaporation occurs continuously at all temperatures, not just at a threshold.
  • Some participants assert that the highest energy particles evaporate first, drawing parallels between this process and the limitations imposed by relativity on particle acceleration.
  • There is a suggestion that after a certain threshold speed, additional energy contributes to mass rather than increasing speed, paralleling the behavior of water at high temperatures.
  • Questions are raised about the nature of wave-particle duality and whether all particles acquire this property when sufficiently accelerated.
  • Concerns are expressed regarding the clarity and coherence of the initial analogy, with some participants seeking to clarify the implications of temperature and phase changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the validity of the initial analogy between temperature and the speed of light. While some support the analogy, others challenge its accuracy and relevance, leading to an unresolved discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding thermodynamic principles and the nature of phase changes, indicating a need for clearer definitions and assumptions regarding temperature and energy conversion.

Neo
Messages
71
Reaction score
0
An interesting observation I made while in chemistry lab was that volatile liquids follow a type of "relativity theory." Imagine temperature (T) as the speed of light (C) in this thought experiment. So, as the heated water approaches T>100 degrees Celsius, the water converts to another state of matter -- gas -- before the temperature is reached (that is, it is a limit and so is never reached, similar to C).

Compare: The speed of an individual water particle cannot exceed 100 degrees Celsius whereas, in ToR, the speed of the particle cannot exceed C.

As more thermal energy [E] is added to the liquid, the rate of evaporation (dr/dt) increases, rather than T of liquid. Analogously, as particles approach speed C, only the rate of conversion of energy to matter increases, rather than particle speed after a certain point -- say 99.99% of C.

(dr/dt) increases as a function of E after a certain temperature threshold.


Some further ranting:

The particle possibly acquires wave-particle duality at that speed. Since mass is particulate and pure energy is wave-like, the particle seems to need wave-particle duality for the interconversion between matter and energy.

Could all particles acquire wave-particle duality when sufficiently accelerated?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You have some rather severe misconceptions about thermodynamics. To start with, temperature is a statistical measurement. It refers to the average kinetic energy of a particle in the substance. The average kinetic energy of a particle in a gas is

[tex]<E> = \frac{3}{2} k T[/tex]

Many particles have smaller kinetic energies than this average, and many have kinetic energies larger than this average.

Furthermore, particles in the liquid escape the liquid to exist in a gaseous phase all the time. This is how evaporation happens.

The rest of your post in unfortunately just nonsense.

- Warren
 
Yes, but the particles with the highest energy evaporate first (consider evaporative cooling, e.g.). The point is that water cannot reach temperatures above 100 degrees Celsius because of the same type of problem in relativity theory with the speed of light. As the water particles approach the 100 degrees after being fed thermal energy, the ones with the highest kinetic energy convert to another state of matter (i.e., gas)
 
Yes, but the particles with the highest energy evaporate first (consider evaporative cooling, e.g.). The point is that water cannot reach temperatures above 100 degrees Celsius because of the same type of problem in relativity theory with the speed of light. As the water particles approach the 100 degrees after being fed thermal energy, the ones with the highest kinetic energy convert to another state of matter (i.e., gas)

You're not making any sense. Are you trying to prove that matter changes into a wave as it approaches the speed of light?

P.S. Water can reach tempertures above 100C without evaporating. Example: pressure cooker.
 
Entropy said:
You're not making any sense. Are you trying to prove that matter changes into a wave as it approaches the speed of light?

P.S. Water can reach tempertures above 100C without evaporating. Example: pressure cooker.


In the case of a pressure cooker or autoclave, you're just changing the threshold temperature by increasing the energy required for the water to evaporate, but not changing the phenomenon that I'm speaking of. The "100C" is arbitrary. The important point is that there is a certain threshold temperature that cannot be reached with respect to certain experimental conditions and that this temp. cannot be reached because the water converts to another state of matter. This phenomenon is upheld in a pressure cooker -- it's just that the temperature at which it occurs is different.

The same is the case of acceleration to light. After a certain threshold speed, you cannot accelerate more and the extra energy is converted to mass rather than speeding up the particle to C.


Also, how does energy applied to a particle convert to mass after the threshold speed (say 99.99+% C)? Imagine spinning a particle at the speed of light at an angle...what properties of the particle allow the interconversion between matter and energy? Does there need to be wave-particle duality?

For instance, why does light possesses wave-particle duality? Perhaps the particulate nature of light is due to its velocity. That is, it originally was only a wave but when extended over temporal dimension, it acquired wave-particle duality as an effect of its speed.
 
Neo said:
As the water particles approach the 100 degrees after being fed thermal energy, the ones with the highest kinetic energy convert to another state of matter (i.e., gas)
What you seem to be missing is that the water particles do this all the time, at all temperatures. Even ice does this.

- Warren
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
3K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K